Ep.14 - Ryan Guenter - WHL Scout - The Intangible Player Characteristics That Scouts Consider

With the Bantam draft just a few days behind us, I would like to introduce you to my latest guest Ryan Guenter.

For the last decade, Ryan has been heavily involved in the scouting process for various Western Hockey League teams.  He broke into the scouting industry as a foot soldier with the Chiliwack Bruins, and made his way to being a head scout a few years later.

Ryan is currently a scout for the Winnipeg Ice and is a mental performance consultant. 

What makes Ryan so unique, is that he brings an educational aspect to the table that gives him a unique, but powerful perspective on the scouting industry.

Ryan wrote his thesis on the intangible player characteristics that scouts consider when scouting draft eligible aspects.

We dive into what this means, and how scouts are now looking beyond skating, stick handling and shooting abilities.

I hope you are ready to gain a whole new perspective on the power of the mind and the impact it has on the sport of hockey!

Enjoy episode 14, on Up My Hockey.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:11
welcomed up My hockey with Jason Podollan, where we deconstruct the NHL journey, discuss what it takes to make it and have a few laughs along the way. I'm your host. Jason Podollan, a 31st overall draft pick who played 41 NHL games but thought he was destined for 1000 learned from my story and those of my guests. This is a hockey podcast of a reaching your potential. Hello there and welcome back to Episode 14 My, my my 14 already. I can't believe we're there. Ah, 14. Episode 14 of Up My Hockey with Jason Pedal and I M Jason Podollan. And today, listeners, you are going to have the pleasure of listening to Ryan Ginter. We're going to revisit the scouting community here with the Bantam draft, the WHL Bantam draft just around the corner. I thought Ryan would be the perfect guest because Ryan has been a member of the Western Hockey League Scotty community for the past decade and began his scouting tenure with the Tilak Bruins franchise, which is now the Victoria Royals. Way back in 2009 he served in several different scouting capacities, including two seasons as the head scope for the Royal. So Ryan knows the game, the scouting game from all facets. He was a foot soldier on the ground. All have to be in a head scout. In making the decisions on draft day, Ryan now sculpture the Winnipeg Ice while working as a mental performance consultant. So Ryan is a very intriguing guest because not only has he been, ah scout, but he also comes at it from an academic side. He got his master's degree in sports psychology. His thesis was on the intangible player kicks characteristics that junior hockey scouts consider when evaluating draft eligible prospects. So he's taking the, uh, the aspect of how to grade and critique hockey players away from the from the traditional skating, shooting, hockey I Q. Um, ability, standpoints of hockey players. But now he's bringing in the intangible player characteristics what he calls diminishing character. X Kirk. Oh, my goodness, those are mouthfuls, diminishing characteristics and also enhancing characteristics. Um, we get into those in this interview, these air, all characteristics that I believe can be trained. They're very understated, I believe also in the community were always worried about the ability traits were always worried about skating, puck handling, stick handling. But scouts look for other things, and these other things actually make you better hockey player. So this is an awesome, awesome discussion. All you parents out there, you can be a diminishing intangible. That's a red alert. So, ah, listen to this episode. There's lots of great stuff for hockey players. For young guys. You want to get drafted? What's coats are actually looking for, and ah Ryan's researches is ah is first rate. It's been published in ah, in in these academic articles. Ah, where was the publishers of publishing the sports psychologist? Academic Journal? So a testament to Ryan for how great this researches and his 10 years in the business definitely works with listening to. So without further ado, I bring you Ryan Ginter. All right, my friend Ryan Ginter. Welcome to up my hockey. Thanks

spk_1:   3:30
for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure.

spk_0:   3:33
A man? No, from ah, your name. And our relationship is one of the things I love most about the game is because we met um, indirectly through hockey. Sean Gillam was ah, was a 16 year old in Spokane with me where I met Gilly. And so we went four years together and in Spokane. Gilly and I have the same damn tattoo in our legs. That's how tight we were in. Ah, info can. And you and Gilly were real tight from from the left Bridge day. So we met through through gaily through hockey. And ah, now we We've kept in touch humans often on all these years. And now here we are talking Ah, talking on a hockey podcast. So that's one of things I love about the games of the relationship. So thanks for joining. Yeah, No one seriously. It's

spk_1:   4:16
my pleasure. And it is the the big one of the big beauties about hockey is just you meet so many people and become buds and those ah, friendships last long time

spk_0:   4:29
100% I never sent. So let's get right in here. Um, can we Let's talk a little bit just about how you got involved, because again that when I knew you were both just snotty nose teenagers running around, um, you know, having some fun and then always see life takes its course and we have kids and get married and do these things and then you ended up, um, scouting in the Western League. What was what was that process like for you to get involved there? And then let's even talk about where you ended. Well, not ended up, but they mean your your ah, your evolution there within the Victoria franchise and what you're doing today.

spk_1:   5:04
Um, so, you know, I never had any real desires to culture be kind of directly involved. I always I like the kind of the assembling of ah team. So scouting was a natural thing for me to get into once I was, you know, moved badminton and establish myself professionally. Um, you know, it was something I wanted to do. So this reached out, you know, at the time, just by chance, I didn't know Mark beforehand, but mark, cab shy, took over in Chile. So it was the chill act Bruins before the Victoria Royals and, ah, work. There's, ah regional scope here in Edmonton for to, I guess, two years with Chihuahua. Commendable. Three years after that.

spk_0:   5:53
How did that start? Tell Ryan. So, like a lot of guys wondering, how do you become a scout? Even for people that are interested? It was it Was it a personal relationship that you you know, that you made this connection with Mark and then they need some in the area and I mean, I'm interested in that, too. Like how? How somebody deems worthy of being able to scout, you know, like sometimes like sometimes the story gets told, is like It's almost like, you know, ah, buddy of a buddy of a buddy And let's see what he can do kind of thing, right? Likas faras the You know how to get involved. What's the track record? How do you know what you're looking for in a player? It's such an interesting world for me.

spk_1:   6:29
Yeah, no, I think in my case, um, my name just got kind of passed around, ended up in Mark's hands and then he reached out to the Head Scout. Kind of did it. Ah, semi formal interview with, um, you know, with the scouting director at the time. And it's really like I basically said, Yeah, I'll just do it for free right in it. And it's really a business. Um, that without the last name, there's a lot of times you have the rate last name you have the right contacts and you kind of weather we in there. But, you know, I didn't have the luxury. That's what was really kind of a pay your dues type of situation. And, um, you know, at the very beginning, I was really critical with myself on on the players that I like. And so just like coaching, I think you just don't start out as a great coach. It's something you have to continuously work on, you know, and kind of refined, always be refining. What? You're what you're looking for in players?

spk_0:   7:33
No, 100%. So entry. So you you threw your hat in the ring. Essentially, you let it be known this is something you wanted to do. You always enjoyed the game. You wanted to be around it more and to get your foot in the door. Um, you said, Hey, I'll do this and I'll do it for nothing. And thanks for the opportunity. Essentially

spk_1:   7:48
big. And

spk_0:   7:49
then just, you know,

spk_1:   7:50
it's a lot of a lot of folks get. Um, it's not just watching the game. Ah, watching the games is really one facet of it. The other really important facet t to doing it and properly and effectively is, is the output. And what I mean by that is what you take from the rinks and then enter it into, um, a database that everyone uses Cold. Drink that. And you know, I'll file. I don't think there's ever been a year where I filed less Ban 1000 individual player reports in a season. So you go and watch and you could think you got it all covered. But it really helps to organize everything. And it gives, you know, whether it's the GM or the director of scouting. It gives them a sense of the history of the player, the trajectory in terms of how they're they're projecting throughout their season. But that's so there's really kind of too fast. It's that you have to prove yourself been going to games and then reporting,

spk_0:   8:55
right? Yeah, I was watching. The eye test is one thing, and how you how you communicate, what you've seen, that somebody else is obviously very critical because people need to know what's in your brain. Correct? Exact, Right? Awesome. So So you got two years there, you say. And then what was the What was the next step for you after your initial foray there?

spk_1:   9:14
Um, you know, I I you know, just gradually kind of my voice increased within when we moved to Victoria. Um, Cam hoped him in Big Lowry came in? Yeah.

spk_0:   9:30
You made Dave Lowry. That's awesome. One of

spk_1:   9:32
my favorite people around. Ah, and then Grand Armstrong took the, um, you know, director of player personnel job. Ah, and they made me a provincial scout at that time. Ah. And then things just evolved. I did the head scope for a couple of years. Um, that actually I was finishing my thesis that you of a at the time. Um, so it spent the better part of a decade with the Bruins Royals franchise. And now now, working with the ice and Winnipeg is a transition from fruit. Me too.

spk_0:   10:07
Interesting. Um, my own curiosity is sparked there. How do you you know, with a player, because there's ah, you know, there's some checks and balances with players, right? I mean, you can see their goals. You can see there, assists. You can see how big they are and how heavy the air. And there's all these intangibles will get into your thesis later, Um, a swell that are involved in analyzing the player. But how does the scout become? Recognizes being a good scout. Like, Do you have to find a couple kind of gems in the rough? Or is it is it about you putting in the work and also, you mean Dr that information that you were talking about are obviously probably combination of maybe all of the above. But, like, what is what is the best way to move forward within that industry? I think,

spk_1:   10:47
I think, especially when you would stay everyone spirits out in a region or province. And, um, you know, I think your track record that the players you end up taking think it, for example, if I do 500 reports on Bantam players on 300 or in the province, you know, I'm recommending at the end of the day, you know my top 30 to 50 tape of players, right? So the players you're recommending those are the ones that that move up and down a list that you take that you're up table and, um, a lot of times that you know that players that are taken out of your area. The They not only become players in the franchise, but they become really good players. There's a difference between guys that can play and guys that are going to make an impact. And, you know, you just kind of, um, put the work in. But also it has to show some fruit for the organization.

spk_0:   11:47
No, 100%. So again, see if you're recognizing players that are contributing again in over the span of 10 years. Like you said, you're involved in scouting. Jeez, that's almost like a semblance is of like five different WHL teams with the turnover rate there So much. So you do get to see a lot of addition and subtraction with, uh, you know, with the guys at your drafting. It's not like this is a long curved for you guys right now.

spk_1:   12:10
No, no, it's not. It's it. And that's one of the big things. I think if you're differentiating junior and pro is that you know it is a short window. So on that I think that that even ah speaks to you know, the culture you're trying to create a little more that that that message the year. Sending your scopes for the type of people you want in the organization. You want that to be, you know, set. Because you know, the culture issue so short and the time span? No.

spk_0:   12:47
100%. I

spk_1:   12:48
watched that up.

spk_0:   12:50
No, no. I get you to understand what you're saying there, and it makes 100% sense, right? I mean, you you're not drafted to Cindy Crosby for 15 years. You're drafting somebody for three, and if he's really good, your draft him for to kind of write, you get him, you get him a 16 year, 17 year that he's gone. So you have. Ah, your corner stones are play a big part there, you know, in a short period of time. So I told you and we're talking about what we would be in the Head Scout now compared to a regional Scott, or be a guy that's essentially a wrinkle rat, right? Like looking at this stuff when you when you started out doing stuff for free. How does that change? I mean, office, you're getting paid. At that point, you're on the payroll. But how many people are you managing at that? point. And how do you put the overall list together? What does that look like? Come draft time? Because draft time is just around the corner. Um, and you guys are doing that right now? Yeah,

spk_1:   13:37
I think it really depends on the stop in Victoria we had and I guys, I would say 15 never take. And they all had kind of different page of capacity and the rules they filled, uh, you know, which affects their output in the reports. Right? Um, in Winnipeg, there's four of us, right? And and so it's a smaller, smaller group and so that I think, you know, sometimes there's the the less cooks in the kitchen, the better sometimes. And, um, you know it. It just It just depends on the team in the organization, But in Victoria, there is a lot to manage it. Whether it's just, you know, you think of the hotels, meals and stuff. Um, you kind of kind of have to facilitate outside watching hockey and me, I I like watching.

spk_0:   14:32
Does that mean four guys on payroll? Does that mean four guys overall? Be tough to cover the entire Western candid with four people, wears out. Is that the expectation? There's

spk_1:   14:40
four of us on the scouting stop, including our assistant GM, Jake Hide Singer. Um,

spk_0:   14:46
Hi. Still there? That's awesome.

spk_1:   14:49
Yeah, well, I mean, that's that's highs in your junior, right?

spk_0:   14:53
Right. Okay. Yeah, that makes more sense. Yeah. So

spk_1:   14:56
Craig's the, uh, on executive with the Jets, and then his son Jake is our assistant GM really sharp young guy. Um, Matt Cockell is our general manager, so he's usually with the team on then. Terrorist. McEwen is the GM of the blues. The junior, a team that the ice purchased last summer. And then, um, one other Scott in Winnipeg's. I'm the only other scout outside of

spk_0:   15:23
Oh, you had a lot of a lot of ground to cover. Yeah, that was good. So how does that work in the mean? The draft is coming up. It's gonna be different this year. Maybe she touched on that right now because I would imagine it's it's ah, how has it? How is it in the past years? You Do you do all the teams come into one room or is it done somewhat? Virtually anyways? Like what is what? Is it normal? Your look like. And then let's compare that to what? This you're supposed to be like,

spk_1:   15:46
Yeah, like the past 10 is past 10 years. It's typically they were all in Calgary. My 1st 1 was in Edmonton then, uh, who? Seven. After that, they were in Calgary. Um, and then the last two have been in red deer. Right? So, um, you know, typically they're done in a kind of a banquet room. Um, where, you know, each each table has is a designated for a team. The team can only allow so many people at the table. Um and so that's kind of like your ITT's less. It's a reduced version of the NHL, right? There's 22 teams. Um, a little less kind of, um, hype, if you will. Great players aren't there. Uh, they usually do a break out to the first round so teams can do their media and PR for their They're high stakes players that they just select on this year. This year, though, you know it's gonna be all virtual the, um, you know, the draft is usually always the first Thursday in May this year. It's gonna be a Wednesday, April 22nd and it's all gonna be virtually done. I will be different. But, um, I don't think it's gonna change much in terms of either. You've done the work.

spk_0:   17:07
Sure. I guys, just from an organizational standpoint. So, I mean, the four of you guys then will be maybe on a zoom call like we are now, essentially. So you guys can all be be interacting and talking because I would assume there is a lot of discussion that happens around the table as guys leave and who's on your list left and where. You know, all those things that are gonna happen on draft day need to be discussed. So you guys will be on a phone call or on a computer and And listen to the picks, I guess. Is that the way it's gonna roll?

spk_1:   17:34
Yeah, well, I mean, have you ever followed a WHL drop?

spk_0:   17:38
No one ever have.

spk_1:   17:39
Yeah, they do a really good job of, um, you know, the picture updated almost simultaneously, right? So and in the system that we use their their updated even quicker. Um, I believe everyone from Winnipeg will be in a huddle on that all kind of joined uh, about huddled just by phone or video Conference

spk_0:   18:00
Got you super fun. Um, I've been talking with some Batam kids, you know, recently, that's that's who I've been dealing with and talking to. And there's anxiety for everyone and these kids in particular because they do feel, you know, this is the biggest thing that's happened to them. Or it could happen to them and in their in their hockey career to date and with the playoffs being, you know, abolished. And a lot of these guys couldn't finish the year they wanted to finish and and want to get in front of the people they wanted to get in front of. You know, there's kind of insecurity and there's anxiety. And there's all these things that come with being 14 or 15 years old and facing a draft. Um, did you think that this really changes things too much? You mean you pretty much had a pretty good idea? I guess I'm most these guys throughout the year, although some guys, I guess you're probably finishing strong. Some guys maybe weren't and you always want maybe another look at some guys. But how do you think that the way that the season ended really impacted what you guys were doing.

spk_1:   18:54
Yeah, I think one of the big things Jason, is that there's three out of the four end of season provincial camps that we're canceled. Great. So again, maybe maybe players on the periphery or teams that didn't maybe have it the same type of exposure, um, maybe would have had a little more than but again, um, and what I mean by that is so BC Alberta Saskatchewan Manitoba They have what's called. They're kind of, um, program of excellent. So they invite so many players and then top 80 and, you know, filtered down from there. Saskatchewan have There's early. Does this capture Might have Ah, a little award Balaj. But, you know, I think we'll get into that later on in that, you know, the the draft is just one day, and it's just one year of your development, right? So, um, it shouldn't make or break anyone either way, in my opinion, whether your first round player you don't get your outfit. Um, I wouldn't let that define you in any way.

spk_0:   20:08
No, especially at this age. And there's so much ahead and obviously there's there's egos involved. And there is, um, Legacy said. You mean a break after the first round. These were supposed to be kind of the cornerstones of the organization's coming up. There's an expectation, you know, the higher you go and, um, teams do want these guys, you know, they want all their picks to succeed, but they do have a little higher. Ah, you know, hope, expectation for the guys they take earlier. You mean the this is all obvious stuff, but it doesn't. Doesn't mean it's going to end up that way when you're 17 18 19 years old. Um, there's a lot of time between being 14 or 15 and and, ah, 17 to 19. So which I think is what you're saying, What I tell these guys to mean, All it tells you is, is where you got to get to write. If you're first overall, I mean, there's there's 500 guys in Western lead, they're chasing you, right? And if you're and if your if your fifth and you got guys that you need to get better at all, it just really does. It just gives you a preliminary stacking point right now. at this moment in time, it is a little bit arbitrary as well. So you know. Yeah, What do you do?

spk_1:   21:13
I've seen, you know, on that point I've seen in the 10 years I've seen lots of first round picks, um, flameout. Because they get put into situations where, uh, they're not ready to be in or that spotlight just gets too bright. E you often think about the larger nature of the league, but once you come to camp is the first round, I'll pick that spot latest, right? Great. And and some guys can handle that. Well, um, but then you see, you know, later on picks or guys that were never drafted, which I could name off several, um, right off the top of my head. Go on, tout really good careers because a they don't buy in. They have that chip on their shoulder where they want to prove us. The scouting community. Wrong. Um, and the spotlights not as you know, they got nothing to lose. So let me just work hard and get after it, right?

spk_0:   22:13
No. 100%. There's almost advantages. You mean, if you can If you can have the moxie toe overcome the fact that I didn't get drafted, you know? And really have your dream inside. Whatever your goal is, right, if that's what you want to play the WHL. He didn't get drafted. Like to build that resiliency from that point at 14 or 15 years old to be determined that you want to get there like a lot of times you end up with a better player. I mean, I've seen that myself to see implant, to write that the they come with the with a little more Ah, pnv, as they say right there. Ready to rock? Yeah, big. Let's get it. I think that's good to switch into your thesis. And And Ah, So you now have a master's degree in sports psychology. Maybe we should just touch on that, first of all, I mean, so what was the impetus to do that? I mean, here you are Head scout in Victoria. You start going back to school, um, to ah, I want to get into sports psychology. Obviously there's a connection there, but what was your What was your goal? What was your What was your idea behind it all? You know

spk_1:   23:07
what Um, yeah. You know, I joined the corporate world here in Hamilton after I was done. My first kind of 10 year, uh, at the University of Lethbridge. Playing hockey there. Ah, I obtained two degrees from the U of l, one of which was, uh, a bachelor of arts in psychology, and then a bachelor of management, human resources. And, um, you know, I kind of worked both ways and that the more I did when I was doing which was recruiting for, um Enbridge Pipelines of time. You know, it wasn't what I wanted to do, right? And, ah, couple life changes You started thinking. Really? What? What is my passion? What I want what we want to do. Long term, never mind, notwithstanding any kind of financial implications. Right? Um, so I reached out to the University of Alberta. So to a couple universities and John done, um, whose is the amazing person in sport psychology globally. Um, you know, you greedy to take me on, and, um and I just wanted to refine how you look at that. Um, look at players. Because at that time, the the analytics craze was taking over. Where was just just the numbers you put up. But you know, for me, and I think you'd probably agree, Um, you know, that's one poor sh jean a bit the physical abilities or one portion of it. Um, But then then another big characteristic is intangibles, which was really loosely to find in in academic. So, um, that's kind of where I landed on my thesis and just trying to open up in exploration. Not a definition of what intangibles are, but more of an exploration into how they might have players in the draft process.

spk_0:   25:08
Right. So, I mean, why don't you dig in a little bit more? Because, I mean, as you're speaking there, I'm understanding. So I know the framework you're talking off because I've I've looked at it and I've read it. But for those listening what? What was your thesis then? About the title. Give a little bit of background, their little color so we could dive in a little bit deeper? Sure.

spk_1:   25:24
Yeah. I mean, the title was exploring the intangible player characteristics that junior hockey scouts consider when they're evaluating draft crossed. Um, so you know, what I did is that the framework was I interviewed. Um, it was a qualitative study, so I interviewed 16 of my colleague. Right. Um, you know, scouts that I knew, um, and had a good relationship with and and guys that I knew that would give me good input. Right. Um, so I design interview guide. So everything was was asked the same way. Um, And within those 16 people, you know, it was that anywhere from, like, regional scope, um, head scopes, GM. So it's a good, good subsection of people, right? And, um uh, all the interviews were transcribed, uh, first audio recorded and then transcribed And then from there broke out themes from from all the data that great. So that that kind of gives you how it was done. Um, you know, and so what I did is his first. Really? Us. Hey, what are you looking at? You go into a rink. What are the things you're looking at from a physical right? And I think it's really important, you know that that's an important message. And I think most scouts over the five years experience, right? So they've seen a full like life cycle from Bantam dropped to their 19 year old year. Um, I think most of them would be able to go and say This player is a good skater. Players got good skill on this player thinks the game pretty well, right? And those are the 33 things. I think that every team would universally be looking out from a physical perspective. You could argue hockey senses and isn't physical, but I think the better you skate, more skill you have, the smarter you are right, But those are three things skating still in the stance, right? Um, so those were kind of universal throughout the results. And then I asked after that Been after those three things are determined. What kind of intangibles are you looking for? So so not the physical things, but more the makeup of the player in there. You know, whether it's mental fortitude or or the attributes they possess.

spk_0:   27:55
Like I like in one of the summer's that I read about it. The way that was put was the person behind the player and and for me, that Steven Minutes, you on this podcast. There was something that Travis Green talked about in his, uh, his keynote at the at the coaches Ah, conference there last year at the NHL draft, where he said he talked about coaching the player. I mean, coaching the person instead of the player. And ah, it was a whole theme on that. And now and how he That's really how the models is coaching after. And I think that's becoming a riel. Strong influence, even in the hockey world in general. Just that there are people involved in this in this aspect of playing hockey and and a lot of times the high performance characteristics involved in successive of a person, um, as a player depends on how well their manages a person, Right? So, um, those those characters that you're talking about I found super intriguing. And, you know, I was super intrigued that because I think that's ah, it's a massive indicator of where guys can go on and how far they can go with it. So what did you what were some of the things you were looking at? What the things that came out in your research that maybe you were expecting Or maybe even you weren't expecting?

spk_1:   29:05
Yeah, for sure. You know, the results suggests that break this down the first set of results is is something that I think that we labeled enhancing in town. Right? So intangibles that were seen to be good, right on wood gonna increase the draft status of a player, right? Eso there was four, um, mein intangibles, if you will, That that I think have long term implications not only in sport, but in life. Right? So the compete double choir. So that's just I mean, if I've seen a player, you know, say 55 times, 10 times overseas, I can get a really good sense of the consistency of their workout and their effort. And they're compete, right? It's that all kind of means the same thing. Right? Um, the 2nd 1 was character, right? So And character is defined number of different ways, but But again, it goes back that concept, you know, the person beyond the player. So for these young young players that were dropping in the west in the you know, how are you at the rink? But you know not not only how you are in the rink are your in addressing your Are you in the lobby? How are you in school? How do you be eight. You know, how are you? What kind of behavior do you you display there? Right, so on the 2nd 1 was character. The 3rd 1 is you know, I could probably go on and on about all these rate because there's different levels of it. 3rd 1 was passionate. Um, there's a lot of players, like the idea of being part of the team and getting out jacket. But then there's a different group of players that are like, I want to do this. Nothing's going to stop me. Um, and you know, uh, one thing I will say is that that passion seems kind of flaky, but, uh, the right type of passion in academic terms, uh, can really insulate, um, players as they raised levels. Right? So talked about that spotlight for the first round players. But that spotlight increases every level you go up, um, so from banks is a midget to junior than even beyond to pro, uh, having a real passion. You know, everyone expects it to be perfect all the time, But as you know, there's a lot of ups and downs, right? Whether it's you experience those in junior or beyond. Uh, and passion is really kind of been seen as an insulator from burnout. So whether it's psychological, emotional, physical demand to catch up with you, that passion can get players through, Um, some of those difficult times that everyone's gonna experience, right? So that was the 3rd 1 And then the last one was really just just, um, a big one for me and this kind of eras, that is the idea of being a riel, um, a good leader and a team player, which I think they're kind of synonymous. I think you don't have to wear a letter to put the team ahead of yourself, But I think all team players air in a, in a way, a good leaders. Well, uh huh. So you have these in enhancing and tangibles, right? In a lot of the academic research today when they're trying to define intangibles, um would include a lot of these things so that this was not really coming up with new material, but really kind of layering on further evidence. The one thing that was a bit different in our research, um you know, with team that I had, um was that there's this constant message of kind of diminishing intangible. So these these kind of red flags that would kind of drag your drop status and decrease your drops, whether your top and player guys in the middle, right? Sure. Eso the some of the four diminishing intangibles was, Ah, a real lack of any of the enhancing one. So a lack of compete, a lack of character, a lack of leadership for being a team player, lack of passion. All those were kind of in a certain way would drag your your status down writer or raise kind of red flags. Uh, another one was just outward selfish behavior. I think you know, the scouting communities. You know, um, for a bit old school, right? Still still part of that, and for whatever reason, I think in hockey, especially being selfish is is sometimes frowned upon, especially from a you know, when you're looking at it, building a culture and organisation. So selfish was it was another than one that was kind of frowned upon. And then, um, you know, I think the one that came up that a lot of the press and the media want to focus on, um you know it is. Is the the idea that parental behaviour can be seen as a as a no diminishing intangible as well, right?

spk_0:   34:28
Yeah, No, 100%. I mean, there's so much there that you just said, like meat, even on the enhancing side, I'm gonna write a note to make sure we get bring it back around apparent. But like you said, character can be to find a whole bunch of different ways. And I think that's the interesting thing with with the, you know, grading it, I guess. Right? Like, how do you How do you apply in number? How do you apply a letter grade to it? Because when you define character might be different than me, and it might be different to somebody else. Um, and one, I guess, to establish what it is you mean by it would be important for a team. And also then how do we How do you dig up? That's like, how do you find out about character? You mean, is it through? I'm sure there's a few different ways, but, um, discuss the guys know, right. I want that. I want the players to understand, like I know you guys are going to call a coach. I know you guys might even go as far as even talked to a principal or a teacher at the school where there at, like, there's there, stuff that happens that these guys just don't think happens. I think it just happens on the ice, and that's where it starts. And that's where it's finishes. But that's totally not the case. So maybe you can shed a little light on that aspect.

spk_1:   35:31
Sure. Um, yeah, the how to to, uh, figure out some of these things is obviously, you know, watch him on the ice and is rolling back to the diminishing intangibles. The last one, um, with his body language. Right. Um, and kids at that age, you are susceptible to to emotional outbursts and displaying that, but bad body language. Right? And coming from ah, person who was I was snapshot. Alright. Ah, whether it was baseball or hockey, like I would lose my mind and the reason I I lost my mind. Is it because I wanted people to know that I knew that I messed up, right? Um but it's easy to tell, right? And and, um, you know I think a lot of times that the players, you know, I think one what are too insistent is fine. But when that behavior is kind of continuously racking up, it's it's raises lots of red flags, right? But so it starts on the ice that just people back to your question on the how to. Um, But you know it, it's it. It can happen through cultures, other parents, you know, um, one of the the main sources, I think even at the next level, is talking to the trainers. You know, trainers that you know, our equipment guys or the athletic therapist. It nearly every team has now right in minor hockey or the academy or whatever, because those type of people are usually really integrated with the coach. They spend a lot of time, but they can be a fly on the law. A lot of times and be seen is almost like a ah stepped down from the coaching stuff. So how players treat those types and the information that they can hear a supposed to. When coaches come in the room, you kind of go silent, right? Well, a lot of therapist there, They're listening to everything under the radar. Right? So, um, you try and get as many angles as possible. And And of course, there's always, uh, you know, rumors, and you have to look at things from every different angle. I think if you want, be good and try and come up with the rate person. So,

spk_0:   37:49
yeah, I know. I think that's interesting. And one of things I work with when I'm working with players is even some people. And I guess it's probably an opinion. I'm on the side that I think character can be built and I think with intention, anything can be changed. And I'm totally from the growth mindset with that. And it's not what you're born with their your environment. All of a sudden you're there right now where it becomes a problem for a scooter, for a team is like to actually do that for all your guys and like to try and create develop this carried It takes a lot of work, right, so I'm not expecting WHL teams to do that. But when I'm working with guys, it's like if you think about being more resilient and if you can, if you can understand what that means, or there's an issue right with with what you think your own, you know, in quotes. Natural makeup has has a weakness, right? You can you can definitely build that right. You could become a better teammate. You can become a stronger person, Um, but not without intention and not without some help and not without some dedication of focus to it. Right? So I mean, there's definitely a way to take care of these things, And that's why I love these diminishing intangibles and the enhancing ones because they're a massive part of a player, a massive part of a player. But it's not just what you are, is what you are. You can actually become better. It happens that you mean happens at the biggest level in the NHL level. Guys learn how to become better leaders, better teammates. Their self should be ended their career. They come by the end of the record. All they want to do is win and all. The senator wants to be around him, and it's not the same person that they were before because they learned and they grew right. So you can do that and you can you can. You can work on that on your own time. And I just really get excited about talking about that stuff because I really do think it's a make or break. And it's that stuff that goes beyond the hockey player, right? I mean, who knows where these careers go, Right? Who knows what happens? But if you can learn this type of stuff the passion, the character that compete, that being a good teammate, man like, are you better human? At the end of this course, you are right.

spk_1:   39:34
And, you know, I think it goes back. Tiu Tiu the You know, the window that we have players in junior hockey, you know, kids are coming or really, you know, they're exposed. Teoh, how they're being treated with the older guys, right? And And if you establish a culture of well, first you have to find the right the right guys. But if you have a group of older players and they take care of the young guys and they treat them with respect in the going to find out more, you know those young guys agony, uh, in the same where you hope to write so It's just this kind of cycle that you want to continue in, that how those good people, they say, Ah, player coming in might be ableto pick that stuff up, But they're certainly going to be influenced more, um, in a positive way. Uh, as opposed to late getting shit on. All right,

spk_0:   40:35
Yeah, no 100%. I think the hazing that's been gone and gone a ways that that's there's, there's there's nothing really good about it. Sometimes it was fun, I guess, like some of it, there's such a such a level of all that stuff, right? That mean of how far some guys took it and the good natured nous of being a rookie and knowing you're a rookie and there's, you know, there's there's a humor to that that can be fun. But as far as being a part of a team and like being a part of a winning solution like that, guy needs to feel like he's part of things that he needs to feel. He needs to feel like he's a big piece of the puzzle, because if it was like any organization, I mean you're stuck in a boat hiring for Enbridge right. I mean, you have to feel important. You mean when you're working any type of team environment, that that fourth line guys getting six minutes a game needs to feel like he's doing some for everybody, right? Sure, that doesn't happen when you're getting crapped on or you guys were going different directions, and no one's talking to the 16 year whatever the case may be. So I guess that begin good. What's that about? That's culture. That's good people. That's character. That's beyond how good you could stick handler toe drag or or what? Your goal scoring percentage is right, you know? I mean, that's that's that's being good humans.

spk_1:   41:36
And you know what? Um A as I was talking about this, obviously I talk about this Ah, a lot of times. And, um, I got got a chance to meet Scott Niedermayer last year, right? Is because Josh was a really good high end player at the Okanagan Hockey Academy. Josh Niedermayer was in 2004 2nd round pick by the Vancouver Um, And so talking about just how unbelievable a person Scott Niedermayer is, right, um, actually talking with Gilly, he brought up the point and no offense to anyone in the Chiefs organization. But U Li said, imagine the difference how have been drafted by camel and what I was learning. You look at that. That culture they have, then, which I think Scott was a big part of Look at how those A lot of those pros, whether it was Jerome or Darcy talker or sadar Sydor, donor, whoever they learned how to become prose in that time and then even beyond they had those resources that they could go to guys and say, dealing with this, right? So when you think about that, especially at the really, um, you know, sensitive or formula of age that junior hockey is, you can be impression, so to speak and guided in a certain weight on and have long term implications.

spk_0:   43:04
Yeah. No, no. Yeah, no. 100%. What was that conversation with Scott like,

spk_1:   43:09
um, you know, ah, lot of it was really just talking about Josh and his intentions. Um, you know, from from ah, victorious standpoint, right? But I mean, the guy he's so intelligent and down to earth and and just, you know, like he's seen and done everything but you'd never know it. And he's able to look at things from from a number of different angles and just just a good guy. Help. Robin, Dwayne Roll. Listen, on our stop in Victoria and Scott and Dwayne knew each other from Anaheim as well.

spk_0:   43:46
Yeah, that's great. Um, get pulling back around to the parents now, since your time. But Scott and being a parent and I love that aspect now, I mean, which is where, like, brought me back into the game again. As passionately as I am with it. Is my boys getting involved in it now, seeing them go through. And, ah, you know, it's just amazing to see all these other guys now having this the second wave from my generation that have that have kids playing now. But as far as being a parent, you know the stories they're not hard to find, you mean within within an organisation. And, uh, me and I'm not talking minor hockey organizations. You know, every team seems to have one or two or three that you know people are snickering about. But I mean, it goes, it runs deeper than that. And and you need that. So I've never really talked about it before, but I kind of like my dad was essentially kind of that parent a little bit. Yeah. I mean, he he not so much. Maybe in minor hockey. But then when we got to the junior level, um, where things weren't going as he thought they should be with the with Brian Maxwell and how much I was playing. And, um, you know, I was hearing it from him. You know that this this wasn't good, The environment wasn't good. I shouldn't be there, you know, he was making it very vocal to the G M. And to the coach and again, all out of love. And like, he was the most supportive guy ever. Write mean he wanted me to do well. I mean, there was nothing, you know, treacherous about what he was doing. This passionate right. He wanted his son to play well. He wanted a son to be draft in the first round. We thought he should be, and he thought he should be on the ice for 20 minutes or, like all the intentions were good. But as far as the way going about it caused a lot of problems, you know, not only for me personally, but then also within like my NHL draft here, like there's tons of scouts are asking me more questions about my dad and they were about me, you know, like there is. So there is There's backlash from that, you know, well intentioned parents wanting something for his kid, but they don't necessarily see it in the time that this could be hurting them. And so now you're talking about This is like parents are looked at and sometimes, you know, there it's definitely part of the consideration. I've told that people have the minor hockey level for sure when people have a choice and and it's a fringe player again. I mean, if you have a Mariel, um, you like the dad can be whoever you're gonna take Mary Lamu, right? But if we're talking like a little mid grade type player, why you gonna put up with all the stress and all the on all the stuff that comes with a parent that makes life miserable, right? I mean, I it's less so. I would assume at the junior level, right, because you're not really interacting with them. But it. Obviously you do. You said it yourself. It's consideration. Can you maybe talk more about that?

spk_1:   46:13
Yeah. I mean, um, I think you're right at the top in, um that they they might be able to get away with it because that, you know, that separation between the really high end players, Um, and the players at that age, that air kind of seen as less on or medium. You in not specific time? Um, they might be able to get away with it because the kid the players so good. Right? Um, but your answer to To why would you want it? You without in the bedrock. You don't want to dio Great. Um, um it's just, you know, there's enough to worry about, um, from a GM or head scholars per sec perspective and and that if you're constantly, you know, criticizing or whatever the case is, um, you know, there's even in the research you can say like, there's one quote that says I won't drop player with the crazy parent. I've dealt with it too much. I won't do it again. I see tons of red flags. I'm just not going to do it. And It's interesting that that comes from a GM right within the league. Um, So, um, you know, I'm going back to your own situation. Every parent wants what's best for their Children. All right, um but I think some parents have to realize it that, uh, kids are more resilient than you think. A lot of times. And, um, if you're kind of supporting them, um, without interfering, they're gonna gold through their their issues and they're going to get out of it, and they're gonna learn from it. Right. So this idea of the helicopter parent, you know, comes into play where we want to protect. Like, I would protect my daughter. Um, will be end and will, but she's gonna have to learn, you know, life isn't always fair, right? And especially when it comes to a game, gonna have ups and down You have to fight way through it right again, going back to the passion. If you have that genuine passion, you're gonna say, OK, Dad. Good. I'm just going to get back to work.

spk_0:   48:38
Yeah, I mean, I mean, all these old emotions come back even thinking about scenario. And it's funny because that you forget that you're dealing with people, right? Like the coaches, a person. The G m is a person, and, um, I'd love to have Brian Maxwell on, actually, because, like, there was there was a lot of tension that year. And as a 17 year old kid who came up, I can't put myself back in that head space at all. Right? I remember that. I wanted to be there, remember? Like my dad wanted me to ask for a trade, Remember that. I wanted to figure it out, but I really still to this day think that it was more me not playing was more about him, Brian Actual being mad at my dad. It was like to Alfa males going at each other. And I turned out to kind of be upon it his way. I kind of look at it now, you know, because all I wanted to do was play. I don't I don't think that I was doing anything, um, in practice. I was a hard working kid in practice, right? Of skilled. Obviously. It was, you know, I got listed by them at 13 years old, was a three spotter. You mean had a 36 year old campaign as a 16 year old, right? So there was. It didn't seem to make sense that I wouldn't be something they would want to put on the ice. Right. Um and then maybe you mean, maybe my play did go downhill Because there's so much stuff going on in your draft year and you're not, You know, I could imagine that it probably impact my performance at some point, but I wasn't a bad kid. At least I don't think I was a bad kid. Yeah, I don't think I was recognized as being somebody that that shouldn't be played. And it just sort of seemed like it played out that it was like a little bit of a pissing match against, like, Brian Maxwell in my dad, because it was such a a big deal. And, um and that's crap, you know, I mean, there's no other way to put it. You mean the kids shouldn't be involved in that situation because there is a kid that wants to play hockey at the end of the day, Right. But in saying that this isn't like my big life story here, but I do think that that year Help me going on because I was able to figure that out. You know, I was able to say no, Dad, I want to do this. I want to find out how how to make this work and probably didn't go about it the best way. But at least there was a process there, you know? And there is Ah, there was a learning curve and and now I guess my the reason I'm telling that story because now, like at an Adam level, like, I'll have parents as cook head coaching this year, right? Like that kid, I had a 15 2nd shift in the pp pp or something. And I thought they just went out there, for instance, and maybe did something that I told them not to do, right. And I take them off the ice and put on the next line like, I need to explain that since scenario, right, how could you possibly take and the only back? That's when it's like, Oh, my God, like, can't you not see that there's value and maybe the kid getting off the ice early? You know, like you are missing a shift like there's some lesson there that you should be able to talk your kid through right, that you need to learn something that it's there's so quick to jump in right and fix every problem. And I think that's the danger with parents right now is like, Let the kids figure it out. It's okay, right? Yeah.

spk_1:   51:26
Um, I would fully agree with all right, and, um, like, you know, like, even when you talkto number PB, um, parents and I do lots of presentations. Why, there's no one there greatly. Like even, for example, this year were dropped in your fights, Right? I'll take note of the old sixes, but there's there's too much other stuff to really focus on other than your fight, right? So even their performance this year, the old six, is that they're playing as first year. Bantam. I'll take note, but I'm not. It's not make or break for them until they're kind of in their year. And and rightly or wrongly, that's just the way the process works, Right? You're focused on that, that that dropped here. So why not implement things like will be a good team player if you got taken off, Maybe you go do something right. Or maybe you weren't working hard enough for, you know, whatever the case is, be a good team player instead of making it about the individual, right?

spk_0:   52:34
The massive lesson there and then when that is, I mean, all these things we're talking about to me is like, that's what this big like. The ah ha moment of all this stuff is you don't get these things. You don't learn how to compete consistently and have character and have passion and be a good teammate without going through some shit. Yeah, you got to go through it because you have to build it, right? I mean, it's it's one of those things. And if you when you get when you get sabotaged, our lambasted with something the knowledge of your first year pro and maybe you had a sweet, smooth minor hockey career and l the coach has loved you, and he went through junior, it was a breeze. Now, all of a sudden, you're in pro and you can't figure it out on someone doesn't like you and and now you're going through something for the first time. You like cool. That's dangerous. Really. dangerous.

spk_1:   53:14
Good luck to you.

spk_0:   53:15
Yeah, you don't know. You know,

spk_1:   53:18
uh, especially when you're trying to compete against no guys that are putting food on their table for their at the pro level. That's a different. Yeah, for a young guy to step into and half a piece

spk_0:   53:39
hither. Guys, thanks for listening. It's a short reminder that please rate review and subscribe to the podcast. If you're enjoying it, that's the only way to really support me and to support the podcast. If you like the information that we're bringing, you let others know about it. So it allows Ah, the algorithms in the search engines to bring up up my hockey when people are looking for good content. So if you can help me, that would be my asked to you is take the second afterwards to ah, leave a review until let us know what you think of the will you think of the content, Thank you very much. Now back to the episode, it's gotta be intrinsic, right? That passion, where I love that you're talking about that because there needs to be a deep level of that. Like, why am I doing it? Why am I going to fight through this? Right? And if you don't have that, you don't have the grit, and you're gonna quit. You're gonna do something easier. It is not easy. And

spk_1:   54:33
pods. That's okay too, right? Yeah. You're still learning from the game and you'll learn. Hopefully, you learn what you're passionate about, right? And, um, there still lots of lessons. It minor hockey is your last stop. You learn more than most people. Who, um What? You don't play a team sport?

spk_0:   54:54
100% percent? Yeah, there's no judge of by me. I just like when guys come to me and they say what I say, what do you want to do? And they'll have whatever it is that they want to do whether that goal is no, I want to play the WHL or I want to get a different one scholarship or you want to be an NHL player. Well, okay, that's awesome. I love that's That's what I do. I want you to get that. But this is what this means, though, right? You have to understand what you're saying because there's gonna be a level of commitment that you're gonna have to you have to dig in and do. And there's any level resiliency that's gonna be required to be level workout that's gonna be required. And if you're prepared to do that, then let's do it right. Maybe we'll find out along the way that you're not prepared. But, I mean, I'm gonna be as honest as I can with you about that process. Looks like, right. Um, so, yeah. So parents are interesting. You mean that the selfish behavior I love you talk about the analytics to Because analytics and there My gosh, we could have Ah, we could have a day conference about this, right? Like it's some teams. Air is all in, and that's all they look at, right? They want a number, and they attach a number of stuff in these and all these, uh, intangibles you're talking about are almost impossible to put a number on. Um, so that becomes really interesting to me. Was those organizations? Um, but I like the year that you're talking about this. I like that you incorporated it. How does Ah, how does this, Um how does this get in your draft, Lis Now? Like, how do we make what we're talking about here. Don't we Pull it out of the ether here and, like, apply it to, like, you got to pick players now in in three weeks. And and maybe you guys do agree on the skating. This guy conscripts, right? Maybe I do agree at this guy comes good, finisher. Good. First pass all those stuff. That's the eye test. And now you're having to talk about character. And maybe you're you're digging in on something. Somebody else doesn't see it. Like, how does how does this come out in the wash at the end of the day?

spk_1:   56:37
Yeah, I really think that it's like like anything, right? Um, they're going back to your comments about the analytics. If you rely on analytics alone, you're gonna be in trouble. Right? Um, if you rely on Onley intangibles and you just picked the hardest workers, Um, the best team players in the most passionate players, but they don't have the skill or the skating ability. You're in trouble, right? So it's a collection of all these different things, and, um, that you take into consideration combined with all the hard work that you do, plus what you know. Um and coming up with what you feel are the best decisions as a group. Um, you know, in my research, um, which I truly love doing. I came across a study that was done in the believers in South Africa about rugby players, and it was a long attitudinal studies. Great. That is, they were measuring kind of all these different things about players in their youth and then tracked them over a long term basis to see how they ended up, right. And so it was 12 year study. Um, that this gentleman by the name of spay mur um, included in and in his conclusion, one of the conclusions was he kind of said, like, there is no no set number of of kind of possibilities into the inputs you can put in right? Meaning, Like after 12 years, I still don't know how many things we can measure to come out with the best answer, right? So it's it's if you were like I say it's a collection of things as opposed to relying on just one thing here. One thing there. I'm kind of being narrow You, right? You gotta take it as a whole.

spk_0:   58:35
You have you found? And as you, uh, talking about this, I think, Evan, I've I've kind of know, maybe subconsciously knowing this or felt this. I want to hear your opinion, But, like, let's say e mean, just weaken. We can have. Ah, an equation here. Let's say you have a guy that's Ah, seven out of 10 for skating. You have a guy that's a five. Um, but the five guy has tons of passion. He's got tons of character. You think he's a great leader? He competes. Do you see that guy's air like that can close the gap Like I think. I think the guys that have these intangibles get better, right? They continue to get better and they continue to enhance the dig. This and this initial talent that everybody loves, everyone loves talent. But I'm now I'm talking about skill, right? Like, what do you do with that talent? And I think these guys that have the character that go to the ends right, they're gonna put in the time they can catch these other guys like that's where I think in your window. Like that's where would be interesting, because I think if if you could kind of track that almost and see if that actually happens. I've seen it anecdotally, right? But I wonder if it's like if it actually comes out in the wash that way. Do you see that happening?

spk_1:   59:48
Yeah. I mean, I think that's the next phase in in my research and even the the team when I defended my thesis is a lot of different ways that we can track this and put a substantiated number on it and make it more of a quantitative look at things. But going back to just you talk comments there. Um, you know, I love talking about this stuff because it goes into again one year of your development, whether it's the WHL dropped for the NHL drop. That is not the end of the line, right? And and especially the younger kids like, if you think back were the same age 1976 born. When you think back to how you were at that age, you kind of think talent is a static thing, right? 100%. Either you have it or you don't one

spk_0:   1:0:44
100%.

spk_1:   1:0:45
So when I look at Michael Jordan as a kid, I was like He's just better than ever, right? As I came to grow older and appreciate what you put into the game on, even look at that, you know, cut from his high school team. All that stuff, right? He was relentless. And so there's this this big kind of differentiator between talent and skill. There's a lot I think every player considered for the draft, rather your first or don't get drafted has talent. But skill is only developed by hours and hours and hours of relentless work. And

spk_0:   1:1:26
l think you say that unbelievably accurately. And Ah, and I was one of those guys cause I was talented. I was one of the most talented guys, right? And so I always thought, I say that in my presentations Now, like I thought if you if you had the talent and if you worked hard, then you're gonna make it because the best players, the most talented players, play in the NHL, right? But there's so much more that goes into it. And plus, when you consider talent is being static, which is completely inaccurate, right then you start. I mean, I don't think I was any different. Anyone else. But like back in those days, we weren't necessarily working when I was a pro. I wasn't trying to get better. I consciously trying to get better. I was just trying to produce, Really, I think there's a different perspective there, right? Like trying to produce and trying to get better at two different things now, understanding like what a growth mindset is and and knowing how to talk about it, knowing how to teach it. Like if someone could have pulled me aside and said, Hey, man, let's capitalize on this God given talent and this is how we're going to do it right? Like my I'm intelligent off to figure that out, right? But it wasn't around, it wasn't there, you know? So you're just kind of going through the motions of being a player. But you saying there that you thought talent was a static thing? I think I mean that I can completely relate to that. And I think most most people probably do. And maybe I think a lot of people still do, which is why I think what we're talking about, what year what your thesis about what I am about as a mindset. Coaches like guys. This is There's so much you can do here, right? Whether you're first overall or whether you didn't get drafted, man, like there's there's so much more to go right and let's talk about it and let's work on it because if that is your goal, man, we can we can make a difference

spk_1:   1:3:02
big time. And, um, you know, it's It's the growth mindset is we always said in Victoria during our you know, we had some competitive teams, um, throughout the league and in the Western Conference, and we always stress better each day, right? And a lot of kids who want to get better, um, you know, improve the things they're they're always good, I but those was truly talented players and, um, kids that have developed a growth mindset which usually comes from home on the way. Um, you know that they understand that they have still have weaknesses in their game, and they want to get better in every kind of asset, right? And going back to my my comments below our comments before rather that you know, every step you go up, um, you gotta prove you know your worth like every time in minor hockey, you're always trying to make a team. But as you know, the next step in your career if you want to make this a career is you have to keep a job right in. So you're not You're not trying to make a team anymore. You're keeping your job which requires you to get better. Not only with your skill in skating or whatever the case is, but who you are. How you develop the young guys, how you're in the room. What, you know what kind of message you're conveying to people. And, um, all those type of things help keep your job right? Yeah. So it's just this mindset of of getting better every day and how you could do that, right?

spk_0:   1:4:39
Yeah, exactly. Oh, and instituting that is part of like who you are. That's the identity of who you are. And when I talk to guy, just not just about being a hockey player, you need to approach life like that, right? Like you need to be excited about getting up and doing something to to improve yourself, right? If that's like the backbone of who you are and who you developed yourself to be, and that's your identity, then it's not about scoring 50 goals, right? It's about what I do today to separate myself from myself yesterday or from others around me or whatever that motivation is right. And when that is, when that's the breeding ground, like you're building yourself, worth your building, your self confidence. You're building all these the strong, integral things about yourself that isn't off. I think the term anti fragile, right? Not anti fragile, right? It's not stuff that is out of your control, but it's stuff that's within your control. And when you really embrace that, my gosh, does that translate into performance and getting closer your potential? It's really what is the end of the day is what we all want to do, right? How how much potential can we get out of ourselves? Right big

spk_1:   1:5:36
time? Um, and I always address, um, just on that note, I always dress the players in the presentations that I do like. This is an athlete presentation. I know you guys all play hockey and you want to be in the NHL. There's only so many jobs, but if you want to be Ah, an athlete that that opens up a lot of I'm not just a hockey player. I'm an athlete, right? And so I believe is and you see getting better trying different things. And, um, you know, I think that only improves yourself when you're not defining yourself of the hockey player

spk_0:   1:6:14
100%. I mean what I love with working with the young guys or guys that are passionate about something, which is hockey like this becomes a platform and a framework that you can talk about all these things around because when you know it's much easier to have something that people are passionate about right now, I can take my son and say, Hey, we're gonna We're gonna use all these growth mindset concepts around long division, right? And he doesn't wanting to do with it, right? So it's really hard to teach that stuff off of something that people are interested in, right when you can find that that thing right now, Now those lessons can can translate into everything else, right? And that's what I love about hockey players and young hockey players. I want to get somewhere is that they can learn all these things. They're going to translate, um, outside of the game and hopefully to the game that they want to play and hopefully get also they want to get. But like you said, there's only so many jobs. There's only so many scholarships. There's only so many things that can do but the ones that want to dig into this stuff the most. I tell you're gonna have the best chance of getting those things right for sure, for sure. And

spk_1:   1:7:08
I'm not getting defined by those those years, like you don't get dropped it at 17 in the Junior League like there's plenty of 20 year olds. Get free agent signings every year get dropped about 1918. So it's not getting locked into that.

spk_0:   1:7:23
Okay, as a Scot on the shift gears a little bit this way. Talked about, um, ice time and stuff, and so that's like the biggest thing I think. And I think everybody wants to be on the power play. Everybody wants to be the goal scorer, especially the 14 year old level. Are you looking for the best offensive producing player all the time? Is that Is that how the draft works like one through eight. Doesn't matter that much. Like I'm just I'm trying and maybe it doesn't matter that much. But I mean, if I had a kid that was one of his draft year, now he's more of a peek A guy and his team. But, you know, you can tell he's got some skill. But whatever reason, he's not on the PP like, I mean, what does that mean at the end of the day? Like, what? Does that mean to use a scout at the end of the day?

spk_1:   1:8:08
Yeah. What I will say is, um, there's a couple things without right and the 1st 1 is that it? You know, if you think scouts don't maybe, you know, it's not in a disrespectful way, But if you think like Coach E, why is it not kid on the right? You know, kind of questioning some of the coaches decisions like so So it's not you. Just you just not enamored by the players on the ice. You thinking like why don't we have this clear? They're not player there, So the ice time is not not everything. You you can see the abilities kind of plainly a lot of cases ready, whether your honor there, Um, the second thing is, you know, even I can envision a couple players this year that are high on our list that might have played every power plate. You know what? In three or four years, that's not gonna be their identity. Their identity is gonna be on the peak a You know, um, clearing pucks out of his own and really good front yet, and they might not get any power play time, but they're still going to get be NHL prospects. Right? So, um, that's where a lot of kids get into trouble. Bodies were ready. They think they're Sidney Crosby or Patriquin. But in reality, there, I don't know, like Andrew shar or kind of those agitator type of rules I can't even think of been so long since we've seen a hockey game. But you know, their identity is is your bottom six guys Shawn Kerala. Really? Um um you know those guys that really add value in a salary cap era who know what they are? They're not trying to be patrick ing, but they're still banking a career out of it. Right? Kids get lost into. I want to be Patrick teams, but I'm saying I usually say when when I'm working with individuals at the next level, are you gonna be Patrick, right? And they're usually, like, No, I'm not. Okay, so let's find a role model who you want to be like. So I think you hopefully you can see we're going back to that ice time. And really, really, those players that are effective, um, which every team needs has a has a clear identity of what they are.

spk_0:   1:10:33
No. Well, no. There's two parts there. I think that I'd like to touch on is one with the ice time you then you mean to bring back in your thesis and the bad body language and the self behavior the you know, the emotional maturity, you mean, if you as a scout you're watching there. I mean, you can handle that two different ways, right? Like one. Now, I'm I'm letting everyone know that I'm upset that I'm not on the power play by my body language and by being I'm supposed to be the guy and that shines through in flying colors. Or you could be the guy that just digs in takes it as an opportunity, crushes the PK and and do what you do in your regular strength. You've show your skill. Then there, right do the things that are going to get your recognizing and have you guys in the stands talking about Why isn't that guy on the P. P right? I mean, they and that's and that's the thing that I love about mindset raise because you're you can tell yourself two different stories. Why me? Wise in the coach does not like me. How come this is so unfair? I'm better than these guys, which results in all these thoughts and emotions that result in poor results. Or you could be like, Hey, what can I learn from this? How can I get better from this? How can I show the best side of me in this situation? Right? And when you have those conversations with yourself and you can consciously have them My gosh, you're talking about two different hockey players big right? And just to

spk_1:   1:11:45
add to that, you know or dot her mom is in the lobby between period What? Disney on the power play. And, you know, going back to my comment. Um, about my own, um, personal body language, especially in baseball, right? I was robots and snap and, you know, but, um, looking back, you only have so much energy, right?

spk_0:   1:12:12
So, like,

spk_1:   1:12:13
you see, when you're spending all that energy and, like, why me? Why this questioning this pissed off, which everyone can usually plainly see. Why not use it in kind of If our energy is limited, like you say, how can I learn from this or how can I? I'm going to get an opportunity at some point. This

spk_0:   1:12:37
is just

spk_1:   1:12:38
one game, one period, one shift. I'm gonna get an opportunity. I'm gonna focus on the next time I get that opportunity, I am gonna crash it. And it's just kind of that when you think of it in energy perspective, like, um, you wouldn't want to waste your energy talking about all that negative stuff. Take the time, take your time, and learn and grow and see how you can be effective. Because, you know, if you're a good player at the minor hockey lovely, you're gonna get an opportunity, right?

spk_0:   1:13:12
No, 100% no, 100%. And I'm just thinking as you're talking there to your tied in the parents to like, what an amazing thought that it's like. So when that kid, that bantam kid or that Adam Kidder, that peewee kid comes home from a game and instead it in the car, Right? Listening to what an ass? The coaches and I can't believe he took you off and, you know, poor you. What a victim. Like that whole thing instead of being like a man? How are you gonna get on the ice the next time? Alright. How are you gonna have? How are you feeling right now? What we're gonna do tomorrow to make it better so we can get back that discussion that different discussion with from a parent and that energy. Oh, my gosh. Talk about you Want to support your kids? Just have the right conversation with him. Get him to think the right questions to find solutions and not more problems like that's it's It just breaks my heart to know on what some kids go home to every single day. And now they're supposed to produce. And now they're supposed toe. Look, look at things from from a positive perspective and that they're in charge. They could be initiator of their own situation when everything about them is being is being spotlight Is them being the victim like, Oh, it's painful.

spk_1:   1:14:16
Yeah, and even, just, you know, going back to I could open up a huge conversation. Uh, we'll take it offline sometime. But just how articular politics in general over time, influence how we look at team sports, right? But even back to your example in the car, right home instead of making it about the time the coaches, huh? It, you know, bring it back to the team. The team won today or you guys played awesome as a team, you know, and you'll get your chance. Great. Like like instead of focusing on the individual focus on the team that and kids A Yeah, you're right. Like we were bit together, writer, You know, whatever the key says, right. And, um, a couple of scouts that I had on our staff last year, um, we got into this, and I think Rowley was there, too. We got into this discussion about like and this kind of outside of school, so I won't spend a lot of time. But how how you look it just even, um after the Communism off to the wall fell in Germany and after communism failed like the Soviet model of hockey went from the unit of five that work together. And did you know, each played off each other strength and weaknesses as the unit to then Russians became completely selfish rate and hold up That breakdown from a more cohesive structure, team structure went to now individualism. And of course, we live in a capitalist society. So everything is about me and everything's about you or and my child. So it kind of creates this individual is, Um yeah, but we'll say that,

spk_0:   1:16:20
Yeah, it's interesting. That's an interesting parallel for sure. And I can see how that how there's teeth to that to that argument 100%. Um, one thing I'm gonna I'm a circle back on. You talked about, you know, everyone wants to be Patrick Kane and not everyone Maybe uh likes the role of their given on a certain team. And, uh, I just want to talk about how important that is, because the word I use with the players adaptability because being a hockey player and again There's no right or wrong in this, like some guys, and that's the downfall of some guys. They Onley like hockey. If they can be the goal score right, like that's how they associate with it. That's what they love about it. They love putting the puck in the back of the net, and they love being on the power play. And that's why they play the sport now, if that's it, and if you can't be in that role that you're gonna be miserable and that's fine, I'm not gonna tell you that. You have to love blocking shots and be on the PK. But guys that can be adaptable, that love the game for the game and will take whatever opportunity they have and then maybe try and grow into that other roll like that is a massive, massive attributes to have right t to be adaptable, right to understand that there's value and doing other things, even though it might not be your one thing that you really want to do at that point, right? Like do that Well, do that really well, right? And then see what comes from that?

spk_1:   1:17:33
Uh, yeah. I couldn't agree more And even when you look at it, you know, you see it a lot of really prolific scorers in junior, um, or whatever. The case is inbound to two junior. But they make that next step, and a lot of times he either have to break in in a different role and the he might get stuck in that role, and they don't want to do it. But, um, if you look at a successful team and especially at the NHL level, the best teams to me are the ones that have best death. Guys that wanna play five minutes a night on the fourth line and pox on the power or on the penalty kill right in a salary cap area. You can only have so many stars before you need those guys that air just willing to grind it. I wouldn't give you solid minutes. Um, and I think that's where you might see guys that you never would have thought Go on and be successful cause they were willing to do that, right, um and and really kind of accepted their role and and just said, Yeah, I'm I'm gonna do that, and that's fine with me. right? Um, yeah. I think that plays a major factor in Do you think you are who you're being told? You are, um, and like you say, maybe being adaptable to fill a couple different shoes, right? Yeah, it's

spk_0:   1:19:02
a it's a huge thing. It's a huge thing. Um, yeah. I mean, I just ah, just came to mind he's talking about Boston and we weren't talking about Boston was thinking Boston, You're saying the teams that are successful and I just, you know, like today no char like having him in that lineup at that age, like the things that he does off the ice and how he's grown as a player and had Wade Redden on as a guest, um, last week and just talked about because Ciara wasn't that awesome when he started. You mean it wasn't like you? Is this God's gift to hockey? He was gangly and he was uncoordinated, and he did a lot of things. Not well, but he was really big, and he just grew into that role and he grew into the player that he is. And now he's me. We remember this one of the best demanded to play the game, you know, and Stanley Cup champion. And now you got that guy and thes younger guys coming in looking at that model like you talk about. I mean, what environment you're in and how that teaches you things. Like seeing him at the rink every day doing the things that he does to to continue to improve, right, to continue to be relevant. Um, my guys talk about adolescence, Right? Z is

spk_1:   1:20:09
amazing. And, uh, believe he is the first European captain of a Stanley Cup team.

spk_0:   1:20:18
Yeah, let's room. Wasn't at the time, was he?

spk_1:   1:20:21
No, it's close. But he's right in there. Which seeks Polian is about him because again, he was never He's not a real power play guy, is he? Many more. Yeah. I don't see him over. Um, you know, whether it's ah, Kruger, whoever.

spk_0:   1:20:40
Yeah. No, I know you. And you change in rules. Change the road. That's the thing. You mean guys who you have to be adaptable cause you're going to be in different slots at different times. You gotta love the sport enough just to want to do that. Love being around the team love being a team guy. You mean your motivations change to a different times. I'm getting background, wanting it back to these but Adam guys now and and more from apparent perspective and the teams right now, there's thes all these choices of, like academies or whether we're going to go to zone programs or whether we can stay in our local community. And, um, there's, I don't know. It's just become such a massive business. And there's so many options, like, do you? But I think you're gonna find the player now the top guys you're gonna find because they're the top guys. But, like what? If you are a middle rounder kind of guy, maybe a late round or kind of guy, like does exposure? Is there limited exposure in certain places? Is that like, Is that an undeniable truth is, it is a real important place where you play so they can get seen more.

spk_1:   1:21:42
Um, you know, I think there's there's value in the academy's um, but that said, You know, if you're a player, you're a player, and you know this year is an exceptional year, right with how the provincial and the year provincial programs of excellent. But if you're a player. You're going to be someone If there's no real secret gems out there, whether it's minor hockey here, the account right? Um, even if you are, you'll find a place. It is not too saintly. Um, there's a lot of list players that become really, really successful. I mean, Jake being undrafted player in the Western first round, NHL. I mean, look at this. Pastures, Uh, world junior team told hole for gold on draft. Right. So, um, you know, I don't think it's not a make it or break year, but if you can play, you can play. And then the other thing, um, you know that will add to that is that, you know, and this is no knock on either route because sometimes the financial component comes into it, But but we find a lot of times the academy kids are so Polish when they come out of the academy programs and they can slide right into the junior game from, ah, mental aspect to the physical aspect. But they're almost his polishes. They're going to get where guys from minor hockey. I don't have that polish yet, and then once they get into that next level, we start to thrive, Right? We figured out early. Wow. You know what I mean. So there's advantages and disadvantages of old. Um, I really don't think we cover the the, you know, depending on what geographic area you're in in Western Canada, Um, we cover the minor. Hockey is closely is as the especially here in Alberta as closely as you do. This school

spk_0:   1:23:54
got you. What worries me is one kids were leaving home so early. I mean, that's the first. You mean I left home early and now being a dad looking at that, like, it kind of breaks my heart a little bit. You know, um, I have to have guys leave with such a young age and then and the other part that bothers me a little bit. It's just the financial aspect is like, It almost seems like you got to be rich to make to make it, you know, and I shouldn't say that it doesn't see it. Just people people seem make it seem like that's the case, you know? And, um, again, like you said, I mean it, yet it helps write. It helps. I guess you mean, because you're on the ice more and hopefully the coaching is better. You're surrounded by better players, I guess. But it's not a necessity like it is not, Ah, not a must have correct

spk_1:   1:24:44
from my perspective, all agree with that, right? And, um, you know, unfortunately, the game was, you know, I always look at that. I try and look at the big picture pods and and when you look at, like, the history of this game, um, it's always been. When we were playing, it was less pronounced, but you had toe have money, Great, some kind of whether you're middle class or upper class, you had to have those resources to play. And now it's getting even more elite and white collar than it than it ever has been right, which which raises a couple of different interesting topics of discussion. But when you look at the greats of our game, Bob, your Mark Messier Wayne Gretzky, who are those read their biographies, read where they came from, they came from blue collar people write in, and so the game as it becomes more elitist, if you will, it just I think it's gonna drag out some of the top athletes that did attracted that are attracted to the game. Because if I'm a parent and my son wants to play hockey, um and he's really, really talented, and I know the perception that hockey is just for the wealthiest. I'm gonna say no a little bit. Let's try soccer all soccer. Let's try it on instead, you know what it means. You're taking away athletes from the overall population as it becomes more immediate, right?

spk_0:   1:26:20
You know what else? I think it just does which I maybe you agree. Maybe not. But like talk about taking this full conversation, full circle and the value of intangibles like, you're telling me that a kid with a nanny and, ah, you know, in a special driver and goes to the academies and private school in this and that they know what it's like to be out on the farm and throwing bales around and having chores and learning about grit and perseverance and doing it if it's raining or snowing or whatever the case may be like. So my point being is like the more elitist it becomes, the more these intangibles are gonna matter because they're going to be less prevalent in the in the cross section of who you're dealing with, right? Because for the most part, you're not as you're not as a ah, as resilient. You haven't been through as much adversity if you're in, if you're in a nice home and the lights are always on and foods best foods on the table and you know you're running around your taekwondo practice and then to your to your tutor and you're doing this, you do it. I mean, that's not that's know what it takes to be in any shell player, right? You mean like it can be? But if you can get that kid in there now, right? Or a white color, I mean, ah, white color kid, that gets passion. That gets leadership. That gets resiliency. That gets grit. Oh, my gosh. Now you're separating yourself. I think I think it's gonna become more. Those intention you're talking about are gonna be more of a separator coming up in the future than they ever have been.

spk_1:   1:27:40
Yeah, and I think that's why they're so important. And and even as you talk about that, like Patrick came from, Patrick Kane came from it. all the ultra wealthy family. But he was relentless. He doesn't develop that skill again. Going back to you know, talent is not started. It is something that you develop are just her passion and working hard effort and wanting to be better, right? So I think those the your writing that those intangibles do, they do matter and they do count. And especially over the long term, If you're trying to project teenagers, of course, you're not always going to be right number. Whether you're projecting teenagers for junior teenagers for pro, they matter great. And, um um so I think that that's a great job of pulling it full circle.

spk_0:   1:28:33
I mean, I really do. I think that it's there, and that's why I mean, it's not easy. T probably hear the passion of my voice about it because it's so true to me like now, like wishing that I would have understood a little bit more about psychology about like how toe reframe your perspective. You know about how to develop that growth mindset and now to see it apply like it to implant this new information that I've been learning studying onto today's athlete, right? These today's young athlete, and that was a dad to be able to use it as a dad and as a coach and like to see the difference that it makes. Um, it's just mean. Gosh, it just It just fires me up because there's there's so much there, right? There's so much there as far as extracting what you want to do, which has become great. The best version of yourself. Big

spk_1:   1:29:18
time and, ah, you know, in, um, you one of the questions that you kind of ah ha have we don't have a script. Ah, stripped script today. But you asked, like what? What I would recommend or one of the questions was Let me just look at, you

spk_0:   1:29:35
know, is the advice to players, right? What would be your advice to players? Okay, um,

spk_1:   1:29:40
my advice to players, um, is that, uh, you know, and I think it goes, goes along with, you know, everything we've talked about this, Um, don't feel like you're entitled. You know, the You know, the old model used to be like, prove yourself right. Um, earn what you keep. And now it's like cable. What looking the team do for me. right. I don't think there's anything more counterproductive than taking that attitude in general is, you know, you're gonna have to work for whatever you get. All right, Within the game. I think especially, um, so So try and try and steer away from the entitlement side of things and really know that you're gonna have to earn your keep whenever that might. If you really want to make an impact organizationally within your junior team or beyond, you gonna have to work. So, um and then I think the second thing that's kind of out of Studeman, um, or the attributes side. But the second thing I always ask kids, um, individually or or in a group setting, uh, you know, I see it. The two things that you can continuously work on are the skating and skill, right? Those air not static. Like if we had economy David on the call of us today and one of us asked him a Connor, Do you think you're good enough, skater? I bet his answer would probably be you know, I could be better so big. The question and it's it's tough for kids and even us today to wrap our heads around. What is too good of a skater? What is it? The congregated is the best. But I think he thinks he can get better, right or what is too skilled? What is to skill? You really need, like

spk_0:   1:31:47
it doesn't exist,

spk_1:   1:31:49
right? So And that kind of goes back to the what you need to continuously improving and kind of back to the growth mindset. Right

spk_0:   1:31:58
100%. And that accountability. Like I wrote down there as your, uh, you were talking, his teams need to develop their players, right? Mean, especially at the junior level. So, like, there is a development aspect to being a junior hockey team. One you still do wanna win. You still want results. That's what it's about. You mean it's still it's a business. But you need to develop your players because the better your your culture and development is, the better you produce for the NHL, the viewing, the reputation, the culture, Everything goes around that, um But what? I think some guys get caught up in new and again, especially mawr. Maybe so in this, in this age of the game is that everything is so cookie cutter produced for these guys now, right? Like you're going, You're going here for your skills, coach, and you're going to go here for your power skating, and then you're gonna go here for your workout, and then maybe we'll have some study hall, and then you go home. And now what happens at home, right? Is this time like the time that you actually have to yourself? I think players think that their development has already been taken care of. And now there's nothing else I'm supposed to do because everyone's handling this for me and I Just when I talk about development for the players I work without, like, you got to be accountable for your own, like what they put there on the table like that should be the bare minimum, your approach to what this is all about. Really? You look like and when you look at the greats, right, And again, these guys are savages, right? Like some of these guys the Char and Kobe Bryant and Jordan and Crosby in some of these guys. But like you should be doing something natural. Doesn't mean maybe doing an extra 1000 push ups a day or 500 squats like Jagger, but mean, you probably be picking up a book that interests you read a biography. Maybe that interest. You should maybe thinking a little bit mindset. Or maybe you should be doing an extra exercise or something. Like if you're just doing the bare minimum everyone else is doing You mean that's when guys start taking that initiative, right? That accountability for their own development. That's a special thing to write. Just don't be a victim. Not a victim, but like a product of your circumstance. Big

spk_1:   1:33:51
time. And, uh, actually, I did it. Ah, global interview here in Edmonton. Ah, in 2019 late in 2019 with John Sexsmith. He has a son that plays in Red Deer. Um, for the rebels there, um uh, we were talking about all this, and, you know, we're talking much like we are today about you know, how this this all kind of comes together. East told the story of a patent. Repeat. Remember, Pat Repeat Hartford? Well, yeah, And in, like, 5 £980 in a really tough era. Uh, and whenever he kind of looked back and people ask them, um about how he how he did, what he did, because you put up big numbers in every kind of category. He's like, I always think my dad, he says, Because my dad told me at a young age that if I really want to get somewhere that I need to put in happen our extra every day to develop in not the same thing but 1/2 an hour extra, um, to really be better and get where I want to go right? And so you always that always stood with him, um, as a kid, and then he, as he became a pro, is just that half an hour. And when you think about it, even now, with with whatever the case, is that the time, the amount of time they send that school spend at school and a jammer on the ice, what's 15 minutes or half an hour to read, or to do while metrics or skip role? Something different every day? Right, So that point is well taken. And you know a lot of the kids today or like who's not be great, But yeah, recognizable name.

spk_0:   1:35:48
Oh yeah, there's and there's there's so many stories like that, and that's Ah, yeah, that is what it's about. That's where it starts. I think from the very, very bottom of the foundation is like, what do you about? Right. And if you're about getting better and if you wrote improving the for vote trying to get to your potential, then you also start thinking differently about your day. You start thinking differently about what it is that week looks like and how you're gonna get to that end result, right? As opposed to just being a product of this machine, that is, ah, hockey playing place, you know, no matter. Yeah, so you know what? We should talk about a little bit. Like so what you do now? Because you mentioned that you speak to teams and stuff and Ah, and I believe you would probably use your thesis is as part of your part of what you're talking about. How do you serve players today when you're not sizing them up to see if they can play for the Winnipeg ice?

spk_1:   1:36:38
Um, yeah, I either individually or in groups, settings. Um, you know, the individual consultations is really just establishing and all for me, I'm quite pragmatic in my one on one approaching that, um, someone comes in to me. I'm not forcing everything, you know. One size doesn't fit all on dso. Um, it depends what they're dealing with from, you know, this performance anxiety, Teoh, wanting to get to the next level, Whatever the case is, you have to be flexible in your approaching what you're providing two people, um, and individuals. And so, yeah, it's I'm really in the process of just kind of building, not business as well. But it's something that I find really gratifying. Not only with, um, you know, some top end players, but it's even gratifying Teoh view of players that just want to get to the edge it level. There's a really big sense of satisfaction and just helping a young guy look at something a little differently and just a slight perspective change and then not making a really big difference in, um, yeah, it's really, really satisfying when you see them later on on whatever they're doing.

spk_0:   1:38:00
No, 100%. I can tell you relate to that, um, so it So people can come to you, um, on a consultation basis or whatever, Can look you up. I'll reference that in the show notes and also in my ultra how the people can find you on an individual level. And then how would ah like if a team approached you and wanted you to come in? What? What? How does that

spk_1:   1:38:18
work? I mean, it's it's flexible on what they want, Um, talk about and for how long, right? Um, you know, I could some of these topics I could do full days, but usually, you know, you get the attentions, found the young guys and with their busy schedules and parents and kids like, it's easy eight hour, two hours and just really going over a pokey concept, depending on what the coaches want or whatever the case is.

spk_0:   1:38:48
Yeah, I know. That's great. I've actually started doing what I call my mindset 101 of course, for for small groups like teams could be a team or could be smaller, especially this time, right, cause guys, they're not. They're not able to go to rinks, and they're not ableto to go to gyms, and they're left a little bit to their own devices and ah, and it's a great time to be talking about that only from from a hockey standby brought from from a life standpoint, right? Like how toe How to make this this era that we're currently living and be a positive one. Um, you know, because there is opportunity right now, there's opportunity for guys, so they're not seeing it, You know, when the guys that take opportunity are also continue on with their development. Also taken ownership of the scenario. Um, you know, ownership of their of their progression and eso It's actually been I've really enjoyed doing that myself. Actually, right now is just talking about that. Those initial factors of mindset and how we can tell ourselves a different story and take advantage of some situations and and over this helps guys move on into their, you know into next year because it mean hockey's gonna happen at some point again with nobody knows when. But we need to be ready for it when it does. I know. Uh, excuse me. I know that the organizations that must have all these different action plans going around and and ideas of what's going to do and when the light turns back on. But now the players got to be ready to write. The players got to be ready, and I couldn't imagine Being NHL guy right now would be a really weird place to be in, um, trying to stay at your peak visual condition, having your met mind involved in that right, having without really knowing what's going on. Um, it's it's a challenging time for everyone, but we can definitely help help these guys get through it. Big positives

spk_1:   1:40:24
and everything pods

spk_0:   1:40:26
there can be. There can be mean. It's not like fooling ourselves in blowing sunshine where impose all the time. But you mean there there there's a reality of situation and there's also yeah, how we want what we want to do with that reality. Um, So, uh so, yeah, I'm not all Ah, yeah. I mean that that whole positive You gotta be positive. Be positive, like I'm a positive guy. There's a reality of situations that you can't get away from, you know? But there is There is an ability to take control of whatever situation it is and make it a positive somehow that there's always a solution. I'm definitely I'm definitely from that school of thought and right now, there's a lot of solutions for guys. And I'm hoping that that she and them, huh?

spk_1:   1:41:04
I mean, part of our company coping mechanisms Ah, as human beings, when it comes to adversity, is that it takes time. And so, you know, initially you're not gonna be positive, but hopefully the goal is to get their greater or some people are positive off the start, and then they go downhill, right? It's It's your ability to grab that, um, and try and find light out of the dark. Three.

spk_0:   1:41:30
Is that entering that? That's another little piece. But like that gap from, like feeling that emotion. And we even using on ice scenario, right? Or like a high performance scenario where something bad happens. There's not anybody that doesn't have the bad feeling with doing something bad. But it's like, how quick can you get past that to get back in that state to be able to perform again? And the longer the gap you mean, the less professional you are at the end of the day, right, guys that do it the best for the guys that have the shortest window there. It's like bam to have the self ah, awareness and the ability and the tool kit to be able to get back on rock and roll. Let's go. Do you find that?

spk_1:   1:42:05
Oh, big time, especially for goalie, Right? Go. Always have be dwell in the ah, you know they will over think things, but the ones that can put it out of their mind in the moment and then address it later are the best way to meet right. And that's a lot of conversations with Old Roller 10 and, uh, in Victoria, and you know, he's a he's a genius. Do when it comes, it is a It's an ability. I think you can learn to write.

spk_0:   1:42:37
Yeah, 100%. I think all this stuff could be learned. I'm definitely from the learning capacity on guy. Think there's so much stuff to be curious about that we should be learning all the time. So she these young guys, right, get Kerry spoke to game. The history of the game, The people in the game you know, the different aspects of the game like this, like this time for their That's a perfect one, right? There's an opportunity right now. Maybe usually don't have as much time to be able to look into that kind of stuff. Get curious about what you're interested in, right? You call yourself a hockey player, get curious about it. Read about it, Look it up. What's interesting, right? Like teaches your stuff that you said those old stories. The biographies find somebody like See what they're about learned from A. It's a great place to learn. What were you go on for? Absolutely, Ever again? T. I always love our conversations. The fact is that we just happen to record this one. Most of them are actually pretty much carbon coffee to the one we just had, but I really appreciate it. I know this is a special year for all these Batam guys, and it was a big time for you. You mean you do all this work all year to get this list together and trying to the best you can hear in the coming weeks? And, um, and it is different this year, just with what's going on. Guys aren't playing and hockey stopped, and there's there's a surreal nous to the whole thing that seems a Vidiri, but ah, I really appreciate your insight. I love your research. Um, I'm a huge fan of it. I hope that people get out. I want to actually introduce it in my somehow we'll talk. Maybe offline. Just about how to get it in front of some people, cause I think it's such a valuable read. Parents need to know Kids need to get it. Um, it's gonna make him better people and better players. And ah, boy, I just get excited about kind of stuff. So So thanks so much for being on. Well, thank you,

spk_1:   1:44:13
Jason. I mean, I always love our conversations, and, you know, I certainly don't ever try or, you know, hoard my research. They're for people. Learn from it. So pass it along and people want to hear, you know, first time I'm okay without too. But I'm glad you enjoyed always, you know. Thank you and enjoy shot

spk_0:   1:44:36
Now also be And in the in the exit, uh, Outro here, I'll let people know where to find you. I really appreciate your time and ah, well, we'll be chatting soon. Bus sounds good. I see. Thank you so much for sticking with us for that conversation. I absolutely love talking with Ryan. Ryan and I always have great discussions. Whether it be ones that we record like this one for the first time, or just whether we're having a beer talking on the phone, I always find something interesting to talk about. We believe in the same things. Were passionate about the same things. If I was a scout, I believe I would scout the same way Ryan does, and we both believe you could improve. We both believe that these things matter thes, thes intangibles that Ryan calls them these enhancing intangibles. We can get rid of them. I mean the enhancing intangibles we can. We can grow and weaken developing. We can improve on and the diminishing ones we can get rid of. So why not talk about them? Why not shed a light on them? Why not let people know that you're actually being watched for these things and that all these factors make you develop you into the type of document that you want to be that scouts want identify and have you as part of their culture? So tons of fun really loved that. That's a great interview for anyone out there who wants get drafted by anybody. Whether you're a 14 year old going to the Bantam draft like Ryan's looking at right now, whether you're an 18 year old one to get drafted by an NHL team, these things are a big deal. So, um yeah, talk. Look for Ryan, he's and the mental performance consultant at Pivotal Physiotherapy. Uh, he does a great job. I love his work. Or if you want to get into some one on one coaching, obviously that you could look to me it up. My hockey of hockey dot com is the place to find me and to look into what I offer there as far as building some of these characteristics, whether it be in a online training or whether it be in a one on one scenario so best like everyone out there. All you bantams out there for the draft this year, I hope everything goes well. I hope you're working through this Corona virus scenario that we're in and keeping focused on keeping dedicated because you know that the rings are going to be opening up. There will be hockey to be played, so all the best out there and stay safe