Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
EP. 169 - Mike Guentzel - Inside The War Room: Pro Scouting, Trades, And Building Utah’s Future
We dig into the craft of pro scouting with Mike Gensel, from how Utah builds a contender to why second effort and playoff habits separate prospects from producers. Jake Guentzel’s evolution from pass-first center to elite net-front finisher becomes a blueprint for players, coaches and parents.
• pro vs amateur scouting roles and objectives
• trade valuation, cap pressure and fair-deal philosophy
• Utah’s move, facilities and culture shift
• rebuild strategy, targeted adds and roster fit
• projecting AHL to NHL roles and usage
• playoff hockey as a different skill demand
• Jake Guentzel’s mindset shift and scoring identity
• development paths across NCAA, CHL and Europe
• due diligence, late bloomers and context
• parenting athletes with standards not control
• Utah’s needs: skill with second and third effort
All right, here we are for episode 168 with Mike Gensel, father of uh NHL star Jake Gensel and a pro scout for the Utah Mammoth. Thanks so much for joining us here today, Mike. Glad to be here. Thank you. Yeah, awesome. Uh you said you just got off a pro scout call. I think maybe we we can start there just for my listeners. I know I've had a bunch of amateur scouts on because uh a lot of the uh parents and listeners are amateur athletes that are trying to become pros. Maybe you can differentiate for uh for our listeners is what's the difference between an amateur scout and a pro scout?
SPEAKER_00:Well, mainly what we do at our level is uh we cover the American League and the and the NHL and we're watching, you know, anybody from you know guys that are down the American League that are you know free agents or drafts or high-end prospects right through the NHL where you're looking at guys for you know maybe for potential trades or guys that might be free agents in the next year or two and you know, kind of projecting where your lineup's gonna be. And, you know, so a lot of it right now is uh just making sure that we know our teams in our regions, and then uh when we have our midseason meetings, we'll sit down and go over our depth charts of all of our teams and look at our roster and see what the needs may be and what possible teams might be buyers and sellers, and and then you know, try to formulate a plan, come uh ready for the trade deadline in early March.
SPEAKER_01:All right. So the development guys, I just said Andy Delmore on last week from uh from Chicago. I mean, he's assigned players that have been drafted that are in the system. He's trying to get them to be uh, you know, Chicago Blackhawks. You uh and your team, you guys are, I guess, watching uh, you know, your prospects, the guys that have been drafted are now at the pro level, though, not the amateur level. And you're also watching everybody else for who might be a mammoth in the future.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, I have nine teams in the NHL and plus I have their American League affiliates. So, you know, basically 40, 45 guys within the organization to try to, you know, get an idea where they're at contractually, uh, where they're at age-wise, uh, try to figure out, you know, where we're at, are we buying and are we selling? You know, obviously we were, you know, a seller for a long time until we moved and you know, now we've accumulated a lot of draft picks and stuff. So we're we're also looking at trying to, you know, maybe add to our group. We made the Sergachev trade a couple years ago and you know, making some smart ads here and there to add to our group as as you kind of see some of your young players come into the league now and become you know your core pieces. And I think what we've probably figured out now with this cap going up is that most teams are building, you know, through the draft and and through trades, and then you know, not as much anymore as free agency, because I think a lot of teams can afford their players now, where in the past we had to look at the depth charts and say, you know, who was who might be in cap trouble and uh speculate on maybe they would have to move a piece and you know, we would be ready to pounce based on where we were at salary cap. But you know, our cap has gone up, our numbers gone up, and so that's a little bit more of a challenge now as well.
SPEAKER_01:Right, yeah, for sure. Uh there's always there's a big trade, well, a couple big trades here with Skinner uh moving and and Jari, and then we had the uh superstar Quinn Hughes deal. Uh it seems like you know, what you're talking about, like that would be a round table discussion about, you know, let's talk about the moving pieces there, right? We have uh Zev Booyam, who's who's who's obviously uh, you know, a highly touted prospect uh that's already in the NHL. So I guess you can't call him a prospect anymore. He's actually playing, and and a lot of people expect big things from him. And then there was maybe you know a lesser name there. Like that would those would be the guys that would come up and the phone would be ringing for you about, you know, who in their system do we do we prize or would we covet? And we think that we have uh we could get some big things out of them?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. I mean, you know, like in our position, we would have been the Vancouver scouts, we probably would have been on the calls with management uh discussing, okay, you know, this is what you know, Minnesota's looking for. What will we be interested in in acquiring to make this work? And obviously they settled on four pieces for one, and you know, all three players were former first-round picks, plus they threw in a first-round pick. And, you know, obviously Vancouver decided, you know, here's the value we're placing on Quinn Hughes, and if you meet this value, we'll be willing to make a trade. So, you know, the pro scouts are, you know, would be looking at that organization, Minnesota's organization, saying, okay, what do we think of these players? And, you know, uh certainly you're gonna look at, you know, a list, maybe more expanded list, but you have to prioritize which guys that you really like that you think project down the road to be key pieces. I mean, I'm sure they're looking at Marco Rossi saying, hey, Heat for certainly can be a three-center, maybe he can be a second-line center, and Deed Boyam, maybe we'd see him replacing what Quinn Hughes can do on the back end. There's similar skill set types of players and size players at the same age. And, you know, then you're throwing an Ogren who was a first-round pick in their low 20s, and you know, maybe he's a third line type of guy. So you're you're looking at trying to supplement your roster with the pieces that you're gonna try to acquire and make it work, where you're looking at your current depth chart too. You don't want to duplicate a lot of your, you know, your prospects. You want to add to, you know, maybe where you have some holes uh based on what your drafts were.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Uh, and just from uh like inside hockey standpoint, with with a guy like Quinn Hughes that gets traded, is is that uh is that a shock to some teams, or would everybody kind of be in the know that this is a potential guy that we could get?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think in that case it was more, I think there was more people that knew because I think, you know, obviously it started to get out that maybe he would not potentially want to re-sign back in Vancouver. So I think, you know, more teams maybe just made that introductory call that's you know, along the lines of, hey, if you're interested in moving him, we certainly like would like to throw our hat in the ring. So, you know, you're at least planting the seed, and if it comes to fruition down the road, then it was well worth the call. Like, I mean, obviously the the pro scouts were always going to encourage the manager to to make that call just in case, you know. We all have aspirations and maybe pipe dreams of who we'd like to get, but you never know if they're reality until you make the call. And I'm sure, you know, Mr. Garin and some of these other guys make the call and ultimately they throw out their best deals. And and it sounded like you know, the best deal was the first deal that they threw out, and they were able to agree on it pretty quickly. So um, you know, that I think in certain cases like that, in other cases, you mean you have to deal with guys who have no trade clauses or no movement clauses, and you know, certain teams may be on that list. I mean, I think you can get access now to you know which list that you may be on, like who doesn't want to come to Utah, then it's not probably worth having a discussion. But if we're not on that list, then maybe we certainly want to entertain that if we feel like you know we can fill a hole with that type of player and acquiring them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, what's the uh what's the temperature like when it comes to you guys switching from you know Arizona, Phoenix to Utah? I know the I know internally there's a lot of excitement. Everyone seems to love the new ownership group and you know the the change. Has there been uh maybe a shift in sentiment throughout the league about the uh willingness and desire to play there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it's it's happening now because you know what, you the word of mouth spread, you know, the the owner put together uh within a year an unbelievable practice facility, built that, uh, you know, bought a strip mall type of deal. He's gonna move a basketball on one half and put the hockey team on the other half. It's a magnificent facility. Um, I think you go into the Delta Center and you can see right away where the rink was last year. And then, you know, he put his money where his mouth was and you know, he ponied up to add seating on the one end to make it a regulation-sized NHL rink with 17,000, 18,000 seats. So, you know, when you go in there, you know, it's a little bit different vibe when you're at a 5,000 rink seat rink to a 17,000, 18,000 seat rink. And, you know, it looks more like an NHL franchise. It looks more like an NHL market. Uh, you'll never be able to replace the uh, you know, the warmth and the you know, the vitamin C you get in Scottsdale or Phoenix or whatever, but uh and the tax deal that you could probably have there. But I think when it comes down to it, you know, you feel like you're in a hockey market that has tremendous support and you know, right from the top down through the fan base of the ownership and and and that significantly uh inspires the players to, you know, I think want to play there. And you know, when you get in the free agency, you know, more and more guys are gonna want to say, you know, they're gonna check it out and say, is this something worth worthwhile? And if players are, you know, I know my son walked right in last year when I asked him, he said, Hey, great facility, uh, great visiting locker room facility and stuff. And you know, that stuff gets out, and I think that helps sell the product. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, where do you guys feel? I I know it's been exciting for for me to not that I'm a Utah fan, but like it's nice to see the growth of of the of that team, you know, that's an exciting style of hockey, uh, obviously much more competitive than than in some recent years and and seem like we're transitioning into you know that contender type of uh space. Is that where where you guys uh see you guys see yourselves right now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. I mean, I've been with us for eight years, obviously, and and you know, we've been in the playoffs once, and that was in the bubble where there was an expanded field. Like, and I've gone through the you know the process where when we started and I started with the coyotes, we were you know obviously trying to get into the playoffs and we were contending to a certain extent. And then, you know, Mr. Obviously Bill Armstrong came in and we tore it down. And we, you know, we wanted to rebuild and we wanted to build it up with having strong drafts, and so we acquired a lot of picks. We moved out a lot of players, took on a lot of bad contracts uh to acquire picks. And, you know, I think the plan is coming together. We have some exciting young pieces. Uh, it takes time, but I think if you look around the league right now, you have to say probably that Chicago, Anaheim, Utah, um, San Jose, they have bright futures. I mean, they've drafted well. And the pain was always going to be there when you have to go through this process. But it's certainly, I think the gain will outweigh the pain once that uh these players mature and they get into the lineup. And then we as pro scouts hopefully add a piece here or there that can help us in areas that need to be addressed, whether that's size or weight on the bottom of the lineup or wherever it may be. So um, you know, that's that that I think that's what you know the buzz in the league right now is you know, you got an exciting team to watch to score goals, and you know, we just need to be a little heavier and a little harder to play against.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Is there anyone that uh you're excited about that maybe the the average fan does not know about yet? Someone that's either in the minors or uh or or a newly drafted player that's exciting you guys internally?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think you know, the we obviously have some of those players in a lineup right now, you know, with a Logan Cooley and a Dylan Gunther. I mean, I think those were picks you hit on right away and you can see their early success. And obviously they've been financially taken care of pretty quickly in their short-term NHL careers. So, you know, those guys are obvious. But I I think also in the last couple of years, I mean, we've drafted, you know, like TJ Ginla, number six, we Caleb Denoy, number four, you know, we took the two Russians, six and twelve in Nashville a couple years ago, Boot and Simishev, who both have played games for us this year. So I think we're starting to see some of the fruits of the labor that the amateur guys have gone through uh with our plethora of picks that we've acquired. So I think those are the guys right now that we consider that, you know, guys that can make a difference for us. And, you know, as they get more experience and and stay healthy and get in the lineup and grow a little bit, that you know, they'll be guys that can play in the top half of our lineup.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's exciting. It must be cool to be a part of that. I know Dave, uh Dave Oliver there, our mutual friend, he was he was really ecstatic about the shift and how kind of the culture kind of almost changed overnight. He said it was really great having having the new owner in there and breathe a lot of life into that franchise and a lot of support. And uh, and yeah, with Bill heading it the right way already previous to that. It's uh looks like there's blue sky ahead uh for for Utah. So it's cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, it was really exciting a year ago or so at the draft in in Vegas when uh you know, we made the Sergachev trade and added John Marino on that trade that, you know, uh on the draft day. So those were moves, you know, from the pro side where there's some gratification from our end of it, where you know you you see those players and how they played for us a year ago. You know, you bring in a number one defenseman, you bring in a top four defensemen, and you know, to go with those young players, it just kind of lengthened our lineup and deepened us more where we became more and more competitive. And so, you know, we're trying to, whether it's waivers or trades or you know, that type of acquisition on our side, maybe a free agent guy here like a Nate Schmidt this year, you know, just making this decisions that you know helpfully can hopefully can help, you know. But you you talked about the development on and then the amateur and the pro sky, we all side, we all work together and we all have our departments that we have to do our job to ultimately have one you know successful goal at the top to to win games, be in the playoff, and ultimately win a championship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, and you know, when you obviously you have to leave, you have to give away pieces sometimes too, right? Uh to know to make these things happen. I know Connor uh um or Josh Doan. Was Josh Done with you guys?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we had Josh Done. We we we traded Josh and we traded Michael Kessering this summer for JJ Petrka. So, you know, that was another move that was you know highly discussed uh during the draft meetings and into free agency, and we were able to make that move. And you know, it's been a good move for us, you know, so far, and it's been a good move for Buffalo. Both of those players uh have done well. I think they're happy with the deal, and we're certainly happy with our part of the deal as well.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And it must be like in that scenario, you know, Josh, good young player, he was actually on the show. He seems like a great character, kid. Like it's you know, sometimes, and I mean I was part of some deals too, too, you know, two deadline deals, and and sometimes players can feel uh, you know, whatever, underappreciated, maybe. Oh, why doesn't this team want me? But I mean, obviously, there's the the you very well could have wanted him, but you guys just needed a different piece at the time, and you know, somebody wants them in return. So uh from a player perspective, how would you how would you frame uh how these deals go down?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the biggest thing. Like, you know, you have to get some or give something to get something. And you know, we may sit there when we know and we want, you know, a Petrka type of player or a Sergev type of player, we you know, we may go in and say, well, here, you know, this is what we're willing to do, and how far are we willing to give, and how far are they willing to give? But you know, ultimately, and I what I've learned here in this business, uh, you know, and I've heard it again the other day when the Vancouver-Minnesota deal come down, you you have to make a fair deal, right? A deal that's good for both sides. You know, you have to like give up good players, and we gave up two good pieces. Uh obviously Josh had history in our organization with his dad being an all-time great with the coyotes and the jets, and um, you know, us drafting Josh, which was a few a good story at the time. And you know, Kessel Ring was a guy that, you know, uh David Oliver pushed hard for him on the pro side because he has Edmonton, and you know, that worked out well for us, and we were able to, you know, build him up into a good NHL defenseman uh and by giving him a chance, and and and that opportunity gave us a chance to go out and acquire a guy who, you know, had 60 plus points last year and has a chance to be, you know, a consistent 30 goal scorer. So um, I think it's working out you know well for both teams.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's great. Uh when it comes to the draft, and and you know, I guess that's where you guys really earn your money in a lot of senses, right? Like trying to do your best to anticipate the impact at the pro level, you know, like you're you're trying to project these guys. Yes, they have been drafted, most of the guys that you're watching, or they all have been drafted, but some of them haven't, you know, made their mark in the NHL yet. Uh, how do you how do you go about uh assessing that? I know there's not a simple recipe card for it, but uh, what are the some of the things you look at to see, hey, this guy's maybe a good minor leaguer? Uh, what makes you determine this guy will actually establish himself in the NHL?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that that's a good question because uh, you know, I look at a lot of American League games right now. And and the one thing when you watch a lot of American League games right now, I mean, there's so many injuries at the NHL level. There's so many guys that are good at uh American League players that are up playing now, and some of them are getting a real opportunity to be the kind of player they were in the American League, but some of them are getting coming up and playing just fourth line roles. And so you have to kind of envision where you think a guy might fit best in your lineup. And um, you know, that's the projection part of it. Some of these guys are so young, so inexperienced. American League is good hockey. Um, every level you move up is better than the previous level. And you know, some guys can, you know, make the jump because they're smart, they're competitive, they have size, they have skill, they have some attribute, some trait that you feel is translatable. And that's the thing that you have to project is is that, you know, is that skill or that trait uh translatable to where they can become a good NHL player? And sometimes maybe, you know, you're looking at a guy with a lack of size or maybe lack of foot speed, but he's got a great brain and he's got a you know, real big heart, and um, you know, that can overcompensate for some of the you know deficiencies in other areas. So, and then obviously there's you know guys that are really good prospects that they have all the features and and things that just need time. And, you know, another team may be looking at saying, hey, we we our our opportunity to win is right now, today, and we may have to sacrifice this type of player. And you know, that's what they're gonna be the question for us down the road is you know, as we move this thing forward, you know, when is our chance to win? When is our opportunity to win? And how aggressive are we gonna be to chase, you know, winning quicker than maybe, you know, the normal maturation process of letting a kid go through the draft, go through the development cities, and then you know, maybe play American League up into an NHL career. So um, you know, it's there's a lot that goes into it, and that's why the three departments have to work really closely to make sure they're all on the same page.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and from a player perspective, I just found that uh really wild that like the impact of like where you are, right, and what they need, you know, and how much that can actually influence, you know, your own personal career. Because as you said, you know, I mean, if you're a young guy in a in a win now type lineup, you know, that you have uh you're gonna you're gonna marinate a little longer, you know, and and and who knows how that marination process ends up going, where some guys get an opportunity early in a team that you know maybe isn't competitive and they establish themselves there and they prove themselves to the entire league and not just that one organization that now they are ready. Uh, I just kind of find that really wild when you when you look back on players that make it or don't and how much that impact really does, you know, have have uh have an impact on their career.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's no question. I I I really you know take a strong interest in looking at organizations that you know have players in the American League that are that they've signed or drafted um and where they're playing those players. And then when they bring them up, do they play them in those situations that are similar to where they are? Like if you have a if you're a first-line American league player, you know, then you park them on the fourth line and get seven minutes uh in an NHL game, is that really you know going to be good for their development, beneficial for their career, as opposed to, you know, if you think this guy's a top six forward all day long in the American League, he's gonna be a top six date forward for you in the NHL. And that's where you play him when you put him up. I mean, I can use my son as an example when he got brought up. You know, he's on the line with uh uh Geno Malkin right away. I mean, and he's moved up with Sid. He wasn't playing, you know, with the fourth line center getting, you know, two three shifts a period, just trying to keep the puck out of your net and not make a mistake.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And I can totally relate to that personally. I was I was actually looking at Jake's kind of career and how he had some time there in the American League, and we had sort of similar numbers at similar ages. And and yeah, when I was when I was brought up for the most part, it was in you know in a role that I'd never really had in my life before and and didn't even really know how to be successful in it, to be honest. You know, like what am I supposed to do? And and if I'm not putting up numbers, is that okay? Right. And uh there wasn't much communication in that day and age, and and a lot of play, a lot of teams were doing kind of what what the Maple Leafs did and the Islanders did, and you know, whoever else I was with at the time. And uh and yeah, I mean you gotta you want to set somebody up to to succeed, I would think, right? I mean, you want to give them the best chance to succeed, and and I'm glad that Jake had had the opportunity there. I actually I wanna I want to talk about Jake because I I think he's got a he's got a really cool story, and it's something that I want to talk about. But I want to go back to you talking about strengths, right? And so you're looking at a player, uh, because it's in line with what I'm working with players on too. I say, hey, you have to be special at something, right? We we can't stop working at what you're good at. You mean your talent is your talent, you need to be unique. Someone needs to be able to say about you, this guy can do this, right? I think that's super important. Uh the other part is though, is that I've I've heard quite a bit that there's lots of guys that are looking for reasons why you can't play. You know, like why won't he play? Why can't he get it done? And uh and so removing your warts, you know, as best you can is also a a benefit. Do you you do you find yourself looking more more for like why they can, or are you looking for why they can't?
SPEAKER_00:I think more I look for why they can play. I mean, you know, ultimately, you know, you can see that there's reasons guys won't play. But I think, you know, in our position, what we're trying to do is help our organization improve. So we need to be looking at the, you know, the players that we think can have translatable skills to the NHL level. And, you know, whether it's, you know, you know, and some of the skills may be their competitiveness, some of them it may be their puck battles or whatever, which some people don't think are real skills. But um, you know, we we are looking for ways that we think that players can enhance their ability or enhance our opportunity to be successful. Um, so I I think we have to look at it from that angle more so and and not, you know, shrinking the pool as it already is right now. We're trying to, you know, bring people to the table that our general manager might sincerely think has a real interest in helping our organization get better. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think that philosophy probably runs through then. You know, even to what we're talking about when a when a guy gets brought up. You mean if you're looking for what they do well and you put them in a situation for where they might be able to use that skill to do well, like there, there, there it is. It's translatable, right? Like there's more opportunity for that player to thrive, which I think is a great approach. Uh shifting gears to Jake, uh, he was obviously a really good player, really strong player, third rounder. Uh, when I'm looking at his at his hockey DB, uh, was always a goal scorer. But I my question is how did it seem like he grew his gross goal scoring ability, you know, like for example, right? Like to score 40 in the AHL, you think maybe the projection might be, well, this guy should be able to score 20 in the A, you know, or 25. You know, if he is a goal scorer, it's gonna be leveled up. He should still be able to score goals. That's his trait. Jake seemed to be like uh, you know, roughly a half a goal a game guy, maybe a little bit less in most of his AHL um university level than he comes on the scene and now he scored 40 three times in the NHL. You know, I mean he's he he he's actually seemed to become more of an impact player at a higher level. Uh can you just use your son in that example? Like how is he able to do that? Would you have projected that? Um, and uh and yeah, I'd love to hear you hear your story on that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's interesting because uh, you know, I would say from Might Hockey right through, you know, his first experience in the American League, he was pass first, shoot second. I mean, um, that was his MO as a player. Like he was very smart, he's always been a smart player, but he was more of a playmaker type of player. He always played center, um, had no experience playing wing until he played in uh Wilkesbury. And at that point, they put him with two veterans, and he happened to play left wing with the two veterans. And, you know, from then on, he has been a wing, and that, you know, that happened when he was 21 years old. So um, you know, that from his standpoint, I think the biggest adjustment was is I have to figure out where I have the best chance to be successful. And that, you know, to his credit, I think he realized that, you know, getting as close to the blue paint was going to be my my recipe for success. And I'm not gonna tell you that I think he's from the top of the circles. I always gonna ever have a uh lethal threading uh to score. Um, you know, he may not even be a medium distance scorer, but he's a good around the net blue paint type of scorer below the hash marks, and that's where he's got the majority of his goals. So I think his you know, ability to adjust um on the fly as a player and realize where the game was at. I mean, when you go to pro hockey, and a lot of people will tell you as you get to the NHL, NHL level, it's easier at that level because everybody's so smart, everybody's so positionally sound, they're where they should be all the time, um, and it's less, you know, of a scatter, less less can, you know, chaos. And I think he realized that, you know, this is the way the game is played. It's harder at this, you know, to get inside, and I got to get there quicker, and I got to get my position. And that's uh, you know, I see some of the stats where I look at and even right now the other night, I saw something where he's leading the league in deflection goals, or you know, you lead the goal league in slot shots. I mean, that's where you score. Um, you know, some people you have to beat them over the head for them to to understand that. I I don't think he never or really ever had to have anybody beat him over the head to realize that. But it was, I would think, and it wasn't even an encouragement for me as much as it was just he figured it out um and he understood, okay, I gotta move from wings or from center to wing and I gotta get to the net as and and not play in the perimeter where I may more have done more so um as a as a center.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And also that's kind of uh I'm dealing with that with my team right now. We I'm coaching U18 prep here in in Queer d'Alane. And uh, you know, generally speaking, the playmakers are more perimeter guys, like they'll they'll they'll move the puck, right? They have the puck down low, kind of in the corners. And and uh what I'm working with a lot of our guys right now is like once they move it, you know, anticipate that traffic to the net and get there, right? Get to the inside. And it's a different mindset, right? So for him to be that uh, you know, that pass first player and now maybe being more of a guy that, hey, I'm gonna get the puck and and I also gotta get to the front, you know, good for him, because that's a big, that's a big transition, you know, that's a big men mindset transition.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think part of it's true is you know, as he got older and got a little stronger, like I would, you know, classify him in the in the small, underdeveloped category um as a as a might squirt Pee Wee Bannham, um, even right into high school. I mean, Jake's draft year was 150 pounds. I mean, the year before it was 135. And, you know, so it's just you as you get more comfortable knowing you're getting man strength and you're understanding you can win some battles and you can get to certain spots in the ring. I think it all kind of came hand in hand for him. And that's, you know, to his credit, he put the work in um to give himself a chance to have that success.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, good for him. Obviously, playing with great players always helps, you know, like you said, getting getting moved up there and playing with Malkin and then with Crosby. Uh, I know for me, obviously not knowing you, I was wondering when that when that move got moved to Carolina and then to Tampa, like how successful was he going to be? You know, because uh could he drive a line? Could he could he be a guy, you know, and and it's credit to him, he's kept doing it. Um he's he's doing a great job and and also productive in the playoffs. You know, I I think that's maybe a nice segue to when you are looking at guys, uh I've you know, I've played the game and I've and and I understand that you know the game is different in playoffs, right, than it is in the regular season. And and you do need to make the playoffs, first of all. So you have to have a team that can win in the regular season, but then if you really want to win it in playoffs, that that DNA kind of seems to need to change just a little bit. Uh how how how do you how important do you find playoffs and watching guys in playoffs um when you're doing your evaluations?
SPEAKER_00:I I think it's critical. I mean, you know, last year we spent a lot of time in it through the first three rounds. I mean, years years past, we'd go maybe the first round, but watch a lot of you know right through television into the Stanley Cup finals. And you know, I think you know what you're alluding to a little bit maybe be the fact that in the regular season there's you can get away with a little more soft skill when you're in the in the playoffs. You know, everything is, you know, uh the level has gone up, the coaching has gone up, the preparation has gone up, the intensity has gone up, and hard skill comes into play more often where you, you know, it's difficult to score and the matchups and everything else that's going on. I mean, you get the 32 best coaches in the world, you get 32 greatest general managers. I mean, it's just the best of the best. And now you have to, you know, maybe make those adjustments. And, you know, when guys can do that and have success, it it goes a long way. And some guys just, you know, they don't have that ability to make that jump into the playoffs because they they just don't have that hard skill or that willingness to get to the areas where you're gonna have ultimate success that is you know so heavily protected in the playoffs. Right.
SPEAKER_01:And and with Jake, you're saying more of an undersized guy, and now he's grown into his man strength, but still not a huge figure out there, you know, has found ways to be successful in the playoffs. Is that is that a skill set, whether that be you know, on ice skill set, or is that just as much of an intangible of a of a mindset, do you think, for for his success?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think you know, the the ability to execute, to finish, to do the things, that that's a skill set. I think that it's a lot of the mindset. Like you have to be willing to do it every night, you have to be willing to get to those areas, you have to be willing to take the pain and the punishment that comes with you know the sacrifices to get to those areas. And some nights people aren't and in the playoffs. If you're not, you're you know, you're going home early. I mean, if you are willing to and you know you're competitively driven, um, you know, Jake was lucky because he played with the most competitively driven player in the NHL in my mind, and that was Crosby. And um, when you see what he does on a day-to-day basis, uh, and if you're if your eyes are open and your ears are open, you're gonna learn something. And you know, he followed the lead pretty darn well there, and I think that will, you know, taught him, you know, this is the way you got to do it pretty darn quickly in his career. Right.
SPEAKER_01:How does that show up from from through your eyes and not necessarily watching your son, but just when you're evaluating guys in playoffs and you're talking about those, you know, the williness and the hard areas and you know, the compete level. Uh, how do you go about drawing a line through somebody's name or putting a checkbox beside it?
SPEAKER_00:I think the biggest thing is, you know, obviously we're looking for smarts and we're looking for skill, we're looking for skating. But, you know, in the in those situations, the playoffs, you're really looking for the competitiveness of a player. Like, you know, you can have guys that are wonderfully skilled. I see a lot of highly skilled players in the American League that just aren't translatable to the NHL level, whether it's a lack of foot speed or whether it's a lack of willingness to, you know, have the translatable ability to score at the next level because they don't get to those areas or the players are defended harder. So I think the biggest thing is is just you're looking at, you know, who is really, really smart. That's why you come to appreciate in the playoffs, you know, the a Matthew Kachuk, who may not be the greatest uh skater, but his intangibles are through the roof. And um, I think they are really they really come out in the playoffs. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, now when it comes to winning, you know, I if if if you go back and track whether it be an AHL championship team or an NHL championship team, it seems like a lot of these guys turn out to be more sought-after prospects or you know, free agents, let's even say, uh, the next time their contract comes up. Is that is that something that is that uh, you know, is that credential at the end of a name? Uh that they've had success, they've been there, they've seen it. Is that something that you think is translatable to the next team they go to?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I do believe that. I think we all look for that. Like, you know, obviously in a case like Brad Marshan last year when he became a UFA, I mean, I think there was a lot of teams maybe lining up to say, you know what, this guy's won. Um, he's overcome the odds, you know, maybe at his size or or you know, whatever where he was drafted uh to becoming an elite, potentially Hall of Fame type of player. And he's won. And, you know, you're looking for that. Like sometimes, you know, you you get players that, you know, are skilled and and but they've never won. And they they've never had the chance to experience the playoffs. And guys like that, you know, maybe O'Ryan O'Reilly when he got traded to St. Louis or who they they have that pedigree that I think can help your locker room internally, and maybe something that people on the outside don't know necessarily think about or see, but you know, they're teaching and they're they're showing. Um, and some guys are vocal and some guys are just do it on the ice and follow me type of leaders.
SPEAKER_01:Right. When it comes to uh I've heard the term you know, prospect or suspect, and I kind of found myself personally uh you know seeing both sides of that. Uh I was a WHL guy that uh that ended up playing you know world junior and was a 20-year-old pro in the AHL and and had lots of success when it came to you know production there. Uh was in uh was in a deal, a deadline deal for Kirk Muller, like my rookie year one for one, and then had another deal with uh Perole. And it just seemed like at some point, and I'm not sure why, that I was no longer an NHL prospect where I would be with guys that maybe had gone through gone through the university level that were actually older than me, you know, coming in, and yet they're maybe the shiny new penny, right? And and I'm and I'm now an AHL or how how does that like how does that pathway? I I know like I'm I'm using my own first person experience and every player is different, but like you I'm sure you see that yourself, right? Where you've kind of maybe watched the guy long enough or whatever the scenario is, and and you no longer deem him um eligible. Uh can you walk us through kind of that as a player and and and uh and how it looks through your eyes?
SPEAKER_00:Um, you know, it's it's it's interesting. I I mean I when I first started scouting, somebody told me, you know what, you're no longer a prospect when you're you know you're past 23. Uh, but then as I've done this for eight years, I've seen guys who maybe at 27 or 28 finally get that chance. You know, like as an example, this year in Tampa, there's uh, you know, a kid playing defense for Tampa this year, Charles Desto. Um, you know, and I was listening to NHL radio the other day, and here's this guy who's you know all league in the Quebec, he's all league in the East THL, he's all league in Finland, he's all league in Sweden or whatever. And the guy's basically making an analogy, like, how the heck is he not getting an NHL job, or what are the general managers doing or their pro scouts doing? But you know, it it happens with different guys, and it it could happen at different ages. So I try not to be, you know, as narrow-minded to say that once he gets to this age, he can't do it anymore because you sometimes you just don't know what your needs are and you don't know where the cap is, and you don't like if if you need a fourth-line guy that's paid the price and he's punished guys and he's gone through the wars and overcome the odds, um, you know, and in this kid's case, he's not a uh an anti-he's a skilled player, like he moves the puck and he's got some power play qualities and stuff like that. Sometimes guys just need a chance, but you know, you have to keep an open mind because, you know, in our business, sometimes, you know, you might be a team, you know, that has gone for it every year and you have no picks, so you have to be looking at free agency and you have to be looking at guys coming out of Europe or whatever, as opposed to us. Like we we have a hard time attracting college free agents right now in in Utah because we've had so many picks because we, you know, we tore it down to build it back up, and the way to do that was acquiring picks. So we may not be a good place for you know a young kid coming out of college hockey to to go to go to, as opposed to some other teams, you know, that have have gone through go or forward every year that don't have a first rounder for the next two to three years.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:How are you? Uh you mean you have a long extensive history uh in the NCAA as a as a coach, and that's also where you played, and you know, Jake went that direction as well. Uh with the you know, the Canadian Hockey League opening up now to accepting these players, there's not really two different pathways anymore. But um, could you speak? You know, do you have a do you have a preference for one uh or the other, or or or how do you think that the the current development uh pathway for for these players is now?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I think they're both good pathways. I mean, obviously you you can't debate the success of either level putting players into the NHL at the ultimate level of you know the highest level of hockey. I mean, it they both have had tremendous success. So to say one's better than the other is not necessarily, you know, a good argument in my mind. I mean, sometimes it takes guys longer, and maybe that, you know, going the college route is a better deal because you're, you know, you're you're playing less games, you get to practice more, you get to train more, um, you know, as opposed to maybe when you're in the in the OHL or the CHL, you're you're playing games more often and you know, you're sharpening up your skills more so that you know it's it's good arguments either way. Uh, I don't think there's a right or wrong way. I I'm somewhat confused now of you know what is gone on. I'm glad I'm not coaching college hockey with the NIL and the transfer portal and you know, now opening up the the the borders to where guys can you know leave a high school hockey program in Minnesota and then come back and play college hockey after playing a year or two in the Western League. And um, you know, so it's it's I think there's a lot of different ways that a player can develop. I mean, God, there's been a tremendous amount of skilled players that have come from Europe that have played well and you know at the highest levels, too. So, you know, there's a lot of good avenues, in my opinion. And uh to speak against or four or one is probably not a great argument for as far as what I've gone through in my experience, because I think a lot of ways can work. As long as they get good coaching, uh, as long as there's a good development plan, I think that's the biggest thing. And that's what I always try to encourage my kids. Like if you're gonna go to play for a coach in college, make sure that, you know, this guy's a teacher. Um, make sure there's a good development plan here, and you know, they have your interests in mind as well as just you know their own personal interests of trying to, you know, look at their resume and pat it up every year with you know success at the cost of developing players. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a um that's a great point. And and and with you being a coach for so long and now, you know, having having the hat on of a pro scout, I believe that one probably serves the other. I know for me as a coach, uh, when we're talking about potential and and and releasing potential and and knowing what a player can or can't do, you know, being on the inside and and seeing some of the habits, seeing some of the intangibles that maybe aren't quite as recognizable when we're just watching on the ice, I'm I'm sure that you have uh have some experience with seeing that. You know, do you have any keys to potential that you saw during your coaching days, guys that went on or guys that surpassed expectations that you just uh now would like to identify as a pro scout?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, like a really good example for me is you know, Nate Schmidt. I I was coaching at the University of Minnesota for you know a lot of years, then I left. Um, and I ended up coming back. And the year I came back, Nate had, you know, I'd recruited Nate, and then he uh was freshman year. He was you know rotating between playing forward and D in and out of the lineup. And you know, when I came back the next year, you know, I like Nate, you're gonna be a D, and this is where we're gonna play you. And you know, he was one of our seven, and the next thing you know, he was one of one with our core. Like he was an all-American elite player, and the you know, a year later he's signing with Washington and leaving. So, you know, this is a guy that you know could hardly get it stay in the lineup, let alone have a position on the back end, which was his normal position, um, to the point where he became you know such a difference maker for us. So I think it's just you know, that's the relationship I think you got to try to build with the players now. And you know, it's different when I played college hockey, you know, it was more of a dictatorship. Uh, you know, this is the way we do it, and the only way we're gonna do it. And, you know, you're either in or you're out. And now I think it's a lot more of a, you know, we have an open relationship and you have to encourage and you have to talk, you know, give them the why um more often and when you're having these discussions because you just, you know, I think those days are gone and you know, they don't work now like they did maybe in the 70s or the 80s. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Did you see something then with Nate with that Nate Schmidt example for him to rise from one of seven to one of one? Was there something about the way he went about his business or the way he approached practice that that was able to elevate him as a player?
SPEAKER_00:Well, number one, he's he's as enthusiastic a person as there is. Like he loved to practice, he loved to play, he loved to chat, he loved to chat, he loved to work out. I mean, you know, he had some of the, you know, you're not gonna be able to do it until you do this. Maybe it was losing some body fat, maybe it was getting a little stronger. So, you know, there was some naysayers there, but he's such a positive guy. And I've always felt like the guys that are willing to to put the work in, um, some, you know, they have to, you have to show them or you have to talk to them about it. And other ones, they just they see it themselves. Like, I'm not, you know, ready for this, I'm not good enough at this, and I need to put my time and effort in. And he was one of those guys, and I was fortunate to work with quite a few of those guys that just were self-motivated, self-driven type of guys. And usually to me, I I found that those were the guys that were most successful. And um, you know, we got to keep telling a guy to work hard or you know, to push harder or wherever, like sooner or later, you get tired of telling them and they're tired of listening to you tell them that. And to me, the guys that, you know, when you don't have to say much, they just go at it. And, you know, sometimes the best teacher is some adversity, and you know, those are the guys that I felt had some success. I mean, some of those guys are so talented and so good that it takes a little longer for them to run into some adverse situations. But when they do, whether that's going from college to AHL or HL to NHL, you know, they have to make that adjustment. And the guys that can make it are the guys that are willing to have their eyes and ears open to say, you know, I learned here from this experience and I got to put the time and effort in here to to overcome. Some of the adversity that I've dealt with here.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, you mentioned with uh with Jake having that exposure to Crosby and who you identified as probably the most competitive pro that you know. Uh and he picked up on that, right? Like as a coach, yeah, I everyone shows up to practice, but not everyone practices the same, right? Everyone shows up to the workout, but not everyone works out the same. And uh, and I think that I find in what I do that you know, really teaching that recipe of some of these controllables that the athletes uh can then take control of their development. And uh and those that are more professional at it, even at the NHL level, like if they're not all created equal, uh does Jake seems like a testament uh to that, you know, to be able to see what was going on and maybe to apply it. And maybe now he's one of those leaders in in Tampa Bay where some of these younger guys are watching how he goes about his business and and picking up uh what he learned. Uh, do you find that to be the the case when you were in Minnesota as well as what you're what you're looking for now or asking questions about now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. Like I've always felt like you know, part of my philosophy is you can either show up to work to work or you can go to work. And the guys that go to work are the guys that usually to me were more successful. I mean, Jake was so lucky when he got to Pittsburgh. The first thing that they did as an organization, and they must have felt like he had some intangible or some quality that they thought was gonna pop at some point, but they put him right next to Sidney Crosby in the locker room from day one at the practice facility, in the game facility, and that was his locker mate at home games, road games, wherever it may be. And, you know, you're smart enough to to realize that this is what the guy does. And some of it's just the mannerisms, some of it's the superstitions, some of it is, you know, obviously the day-to-day work, being first out, last off, you know, those type of things. And so when you're a go-to-work type of guy, I think eventually you're gonna reap the benefits of the rewards of you know the work you put into it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that. Uh when it comes to being a dad, uh, now if you can put on your hockey dad hat, uh a lot of my a lot of my listeners are you know, parents of younger players, even probably like really young, 10 to kind of 12, 14 ash age. Any any suggestions? I mean, you've gone through it. Like what what did you talk with the boys about? What was what was your priority items? You know, what uh how did you handle their their career? Obviously, both of them good players, both playing pro, uh, both not just playing, just to play, you know, they were playing probably with some higher aspirations.
SPEAKER_00:How did you how did you handle being a hockey dad? Um, you know, it's a good question. I I think you have to balance it out between, you know, what you're gonna offer up um and what and what they're willing to ask for. Um, to me, I think the more you're you're going at them, the more you're at, you know, offering or the more you're suggesting or the more you're demanding, um, maybe the less you're gonna you're gonna get out of the experience. So I think I was fortunate with my boys that they um were willing to ask, they were willing to learn, they were willing to go to my practices when I was coaching junior or college and watch, you know, the Vannox, the the Kessels, the, you know, the Brady Shays, the Mikey Riley's, I mean, guys that are still in the NHL. So they they were willing to to watch those guys and pick up things there. And, you know, they that though they were self-taught that way just by, you know, watching how guys tape their sticks, well, how they worked, what they did, what was their pregame routine, what was their in-game routine. I mean, so um, I think there's a combination of suggestions, but also just, you know, giving them the advice when they ask for the advice too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think that's a really, really wise thing to say. That the the problem is is sometimes I think parents find that they might just keep waiting for them to ask questions, you know, and uh how to encourage them to do that. I know, you know, even with me, right, being a 10-year pro and uh, you know, involved in this, that uh, you know, you you want to offer stuff, uh, but they have to be willing to receive it. Like that's the biggest thing, and they have to be curious about their own development. So I really do encourage, I ask more questions than anything else to them, you know, and then hopefully get them curious and and uh and have it be more of a conversation than uh than a dictatorship, as you mentioned before, right? Like that there need to be part of the discussion. Uh the one thing I did, and I don't know if you did, but I I did have two non-negotiables and and one was like they had to work. I mean, I I didn't care about points, I didn't care necessarily if they were on the wrong side of the puck or you know, their routes, but like they had to work. I I I I that's the only thing that I would give them shit about is like you, you know, they they weren't allowed to be lazy. And uh and if I caught them not being a good teammate, that was another thing that I would try and uh emphasize. And those were kind of my things. If you want to play hockey, these are my two things that you have to do, and and we can talk about the rest uh, you know, once you get those figured out. And and I think to their to their testament, I mean it it's you know, no one's 100% foolproof, but they have adopted that, you know. I mean, that's part of their DNA now, and I think that's just become who they are. And uh, did you have anything like that or anything that you would suggest to parents as far as you know, any uh suggestions on on what you uh prioritize?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I I I think those are great points. I mean, I I I I don't think as a parent you can want it more for them than they want it for themselves. Um, you know, so that's why I think you have to be careful about you know how aggressive you are or what you're offering up. I mean, because ultimately at the end of the day is if it's their they're they're not that interested um in becoming great or working hard or putting in the time, shooting pucks, you know, doing the extras, going to, you know, a late night practice, then you know, you're just kind of wasting your time at the end. So I I was lucky that my boys uh you know were spaced out enough that you know they could learn from each other, they're willing to work with each other, they're competitive with each other in a good way. They still were supportive of each other in a good way. So um to me, that was the biggest thing. But I I it like I said, if I if I want it even to this day more than they do, and I'm I'm learning that even right now as a grandfather, like you know, I have kids, my grand uh oldest grandson who's now gonna be five. Like, I'd love him to be a you know an athlete, play baseball, play hockey, play football, play soccer, whatever it may be. But if he doesn't want to and he wants to be a scientist or he wants to be a doctor or you know, whatever it is, then that's his choice. And but if you're gonna do it, do it, you know, as hard as you can, as best you can, and put the most of time in, whether it's on a field or in a classroom or wherever it may be.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I agree. The the one thing I say to well, I said I said to my boys, and and and there's lots of ways to play hockey, right? Like there's you don't have to be in the competitive stream, you don't have to be chasing tournaments all over the place. So you can play local, you can play house, you can do whatever you want. And and I didn't I didn't hold any type of standard for them at all. It was more like, what do you want to do with this, right? And then if this is what you want, if you actually want to be a hockey player and not just somebody that plays hockey, then there are gonna be a few more things that we're gonna talk about, you know, that you just don't get to show up, right? Like I have no problem if you just want to show up and put your skates on five minutes before and go out there and wheel around and have a good time. That's great. There's a place for that, you know, there's a place for you in the game. Um, but if we're gonna talk about this other thing where you want to be great and you wanna, you know, maybe make this a career, then that's a different discussion. And I think some of the families uh do want that other thing for them more than their kids want it. And I and I and I see that, you know, in hockey a lot right now where uh no one's happy. You know, the coach isn't happy, the kid really isn't happy, the parents aren't happy because they're not showing up. And I think if you can just be honest with that, like whatever stream they really want to do, let them do that stream. And if they want to do another one, there should be some type of standard that they have to hold, you know, to be a part of that stream.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. I always, you know, like my boys were on the smaller, underdeveloped side, you know, all the way up until you know they got to a certain age. And, you know, I've seen so many examples of kids who are smaller, weaker, you know, maybe less underdeveloped type of players, but they had certain gifts. I mean, they might have been really bright or they might have had, you know, a unique skill set, but you know, the bigger guys always kind of won out. They muscled them, they pushed them around, you know, the coaches like those types of guys. And um, you know, I've seen guys that would drop out of the sport or go change sports, maybe become a golfer because it was less worry a size issued or you know, strength issue types of deals and stuff. And I've seen a lot of examples where guys have, you know, just been patient, worked with their with their abilities that they had, and let the natural growth process. I mean, when Jake was drafted, an interesting story was they there was one organization that did the body um weight test, they did the bone graft test with them, and you know, they just felt like the brain was big enough that if the bones and the body mass were gonna catch up, that they might have something. And that was a team that ended up drafting them. And you know what? I think it proved out that you know they were right at the time. So um, you know, it's it's just a matter of, you know, having that desire to stick with it and battle through it. And ultimately, you know, I think that was probably one of his strengths as well as you know, all my boys' success strengths where they just knew they had to overcome some of the odds that, you know, were not their fault.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. And being aware of them, I think that's important, right? Like being honest with what those things are and uh and then understanding what you can do about maybe the other things. I noticed that Jake was uh on October 6th birthday, which is a late birthday. And you know, the the late birthday has been well covered in in lots of uh and aspects, and part of the late birthday is that you are later to grow sometimes, right? And and to to hang around, I I find is is really the key. I think that's what you what you're saying there too, right? Like to continue to be at the dance to continue to show up. Uh, you do get that that extra year of uh draft eligibility. I shouldn't say eligibility, but you mean you you you finally get a little bit of advantage if you can stick around to the NHL draft uh because you you go in a year later. Uh but my my youngest boy is also a November 29th birthday. And boy, like when they're younger, like a whole year of development is a huge, is a huge difference maker, right? Just from the the the aspect of age. Uh, how did you like you said they were undersized? Was there anything that you tried to do about that or tried to talk to him uh about when it came to being a late birthday and on the smaller side?
SPEAKER_00:No, not really. I mean, you know what, like I said, it was just you know, here's ways you can improve, you know, with what God gave you, and here's ways you can improve with your own abilities to do things better. Like, you know, whether it's more stick handling, whether more shooting in the garage, uh, you know, going to a weight room and doing some things. I mean, you know, and again, that's you know, here's some things you can do. You got to be willing to do them, and you know, if they're willing to do them, you know, they'll overcome those at some point. And like, you know, I saw some of those kids who are great peewees and great banners that were bullies, strong, you know, physically gifted, that you know, at 15, 16, you know, they were caught and passed, and at 17, they were no longer a part of the game. So, I mean, it's just, you know, it can go in a lot of different ways. I don't think there's a you know an end date. I just think it's if you look at the long-range plan and the long-term, you know, philosophy or goal, um, you know, you get you'll get your what you want out of it if you put it, you know, what you need to into it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh just shifting back, another question came to mind. I know that on the amateur scout side, there is a lot of discussion with the internal, you know, coaching group about that player. You know, you watch them on the ice, but guys want to know what type of teammate they are, you know, how they are in the locker room. So you're you're talking to to head coaches, assistant coaches, some guys even go to the trainers, maybe even talk to the billets because you're trying to get as much information as you can. At the pro level, when you're watching free agents, uh I would assume that uh, you know, that an AHL head coach isn't going to take a call from you about one of their players that uh, you know, that is currently under contract with the big club. So how how uh how do you, or if at all, you know, try to investigate that aspect of the player, the the part that you maybe can't see in a 60-minute hockey game?
SPEAKER_00:Well, uh, you know, I probably go back to my experiences of coaching junior in college hockey where I have players that, you know, are in rooms with, you know, guys that we even and they know what I do, right? I mean, if I have a player that's playing with the Carolina Hurricanes that I coach or whatever, I can certainly probably get some information there. As you said, I'm not gonna be able to call the coach, general manager, or one of their pro scouts, but you know, I can find do my due diligence in other ways. Um, you know, maybe you know, what's a goalie coach that they had from 12 to 15, whatever in the area that we're, you know, in Minnesota. So um, you know, there's ways. Um, it's an interesting question too, Jason, because sometimes people overdo due diligence and they find out reasons why they shouldn't be involved with players. Um, some players mature later, some players, you know, figure it out later. I mean, um, some players make mistakes and you learn from your mistakes. So I I think the biggest thing is I I I've learned in this deal that you can overdo due diligence, and there's also organizations that I think very do very little due diligence, and guys turn on, you know, you're looking at the player, you're looking at the athlete, and I think this guy's got some qualities and some abilities. We'll figure out the rest later. But you know, you can be the greatest guy in the world. But if you can't skate, you can't pass, you can't think, I mean, you know, we'll not probably be very good.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I love that. Um, I've had a few guys on the show, like my my first NHL roommate Ryan Johnson, we had Scott Nickel on, you know, some of these kind of what you would call maybe glue guys, especially at the end of their career. And and they just talked about the fact that they they felt that they had as long a career as they did, uh, because they learned how to be really good teammates and they learned how to be unselfish and you know, even to uh you know, having a tutelage of a younger player that they knew was going to take their job, you know, like that was just the the way that it went. Uh and I guess, you know, as and as important as those guys guys are, uh, not everybody is that guy or can be that guy. And there probably is a you know a place in in an organization for somebody. But when when you're when you're looking at what you're doing, you're you're really trying to architect, you know, a winner, I guess, and and uh and figure out who's gonna support uh the the Utah Mammoth in the areas that they need. Is there is there something right now that you would say that you guys are looking for? Is there a a player type that uh that the Utah Mammoth could could use?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I yeah, I think we're looking for guys, you know, obviously you want to have skill, right? I mean, but I think the big thing for us right now is maybe looking for guys who have second effort. Um, you know, when you when you're driven, um, you're willing to put in the second, third effort to be successful. Um it's interesting you mentioned some of the names to, you know, to start the the question. I mean, a lot of guys that end up being really good coaches or really good assistant general managers or really good managers were the guys that had to, you know, be the glue guys or be the guys that understood the way the dynamics of a room worked or why a team was successful or why certain individuals were successful. And um, I always found like in, you know, in baseball, I mean, the best managers were catchers, right? I mean, they saw the whole picture and they understood the whole thing. And um, you know, you'd you don't often see guys that, you know, are great coaches that were the best player in the game, the best player in the world, the best player for a long time. I mean, those guys were so God-given, ability-wise, that you know, they didn't really have to learn some of the intricacies of the of the sport or why you were successful or why a team was really good. So um, you know, for me, I think it's you know, it's it's skill and it's second effort type of mentality um that goes a long way.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. I love it because I named my spring team. I still run a spring program in the Okanagan, and I called it the Up My Hockey Compete or the UMH Compete. And it's one of the things that, you know, we speak about, not just in the spring program, but with the players that I work with as individuals, that like your competitive spirit is a controllable, I think. And it's something that if you can recognize where that competitive spirit can show up in your game and in your, you know, in your personality type or in your player type, uh boy, I mean it's so easy to see, right? Like it's maybe not easy to feel as a player, but like from an evaluator, when I see somebody that's willing to give that second, third effort that you know will go to that puck battle to get that rebound, like it it just it shows, and not everybody on the ice is doing it. Uh so I I I really love that you said that because uh I think it's a differentiator, regardless of your skill type, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I you know, for me, like we have about eight or nine boxes we have to check and grade on every game. And, you know, that to me is you know a skill sometime that's overlooked, or people don't understand that you know your competitive spirit is a skill that you control. And um, you know, some nights, you know, you're not gonna have the greatest energy or you're not gonna have the you know the great legs or whatever it may be because of travel or mona games or you're sick or you know, whatever. Something came up. You had a hard guest in school someday as a younger player. And, you know, you if you have that drive, that internal drive, that second effort, that willingness to overcome, you know, some obstacles, I I think it goes a long way to helping you. And usually the guys that are great players have, you know, great skills, but they are, you know, the separator for them to become an elite is they're they're so self-driven and they have that second, third effort to to be successful. Because, you know, I watched a game the other night. I mean, I'm watching McDavid and and they're showing replays, and this guy's risk getting through the neutral zone, and you know, five guys are whacking and chopping this guy. Like, there's no way we're letting them guy get behind us or above or the it's like the guy's going through war to try to make a play, and he's such a skilled player, but you know, he could easily just say, you know what, enough is enough, and I'm done, and this is just too hard. But, you know, it just seems to drive them and fuel them. And, you know, I love watching that where the best of the best is because he has got such a spirit. And, you know, you also see some other guys who are on the other end of the spectrum that, you know, you're like, what does this guy do really well? You know what he does really well? He has great heart, great intensity, great intangibles, and you know, that helps him become an NHL player too. So there's different skills that I think help you become successful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's uh Connor, I couldn't agree more with Connor McDavid. He doesn't get enough credit really for that, I don't think, like in the mainstream. He's just so fast and skilled. But uh, I used one of the clips with the group that I work with the other day. And you know, it's one thing to be fast, but like once you arrive at the scene, you still got to win a puck, you know, and then there's things that you have to do to to win that puck. And and when all eyeballs are on you, like everyone focuses on him, like he has to have uh elite compete, and he does, you know, and then he takes that elite compete uh elite compete and he makes some elite plays with it. So yeah, it's a great example for younger guys if they know what to if they know what to watch for, right? It's sometimes easy to get blinded by the dazzle, right?
SPEAKER_00:Well, and and watches elite excitement after he scores a goal or makes a play. I mean, you know, that to me is says a lot about the guy too. I watched the game the other night, they were down three-nothing after two, and he scores in the first shift of the third, and you would have thought it was his first NHL goal uh in his first NHL game. I mean, to me, that's that says a lot too for a guy that's well over a thousand points and well accomplished, like he is as a player. So um, when you're the thrill of victory and the thrill of success is still there, you got a chance to keep growing your game and getting better.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think that's where the competitiveness shows too, right? Do you genuinely love that aspect of it scoring, winning, all that kind of stuff? Well, I told you I'd keep you here till two. I know you got places to get to. I really appreciate your time, Mike. It was an awesome conversation. I enjoyed it. I'm I'm sure my my listeners did as well. And best of luck to you and the Utah Mammoth, you got some great things going on there, and uh yeah, and I know you have a big game to watch tonight, so you better get going.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I know I gotta watch the Battle of Florida tonight, so that ought to be interesting and stuff. And I don't want to miss a drop of the puck because you never know the fireworks are gonna happen on that. Either it could be a you know a really highly spirited competitive game of uh, you know, knuckles or fist-to-cuffs, or it could be you know a six-five shootout with both teams being you know skilled and talented and want it, you know, to beat each other. So, you know, it could go anyway.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know, no kidding. And I know my listeners are going to be ra raising me to make sure that uh you you you uh do us a favor of getting Jake on here. So I'll have to throw that out there right now for them and see if we can work that out.
SPEAKER_00:But that'd be he's done a few of these, so he'd more than I have. So yeah, I'm sure he'd be willing to do it anytime. All right. Well, thanks again, Mike.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for Joe being here, and um, and we'll uh we'll touch base. Thanks.
SPEAKER_00:All right, anytime. Thank you.