EP.164 - Matt O'Dette - A Player Who Makes The Team Great Beats A Great Player

We explore how winning culture gets built, why character can beat hype, and how new NCAA rules are changing the WHL. Matt Odette shares hard truths about scouting, tryouts, and what actually earns a roster spot and trust when games get tight.

• valuing players who lift the team, not just rack up points
• late birthdays and uneven growth shaping scouting calls
• draft labels, runways, and real meritocracy
• WHL vs NCAA shifts, NIL noise, and retention
• 20-year-olds’ changing role and roster planning
• advisors’ influence and why fit still matters most
• habits training, communication skills, and leadership
• playoff resilience, camaraderie, and culture carriers

Thank you for listening to this conversation with Matt Odette

Chapters

• 0:00 What Makes A Winning Player
• 0:34 Host Intro And Guest Background
• 2:30 Late Birthdays And Development Curves
• 6:50 Draft Bias And Scouting Realities
• 10:45 Character, IQ, And Earning Your Spot
• 13:45 Meritocracy And Culture In Seattle
• 17:10 Tryouts, Competing, And Camp Standards
• 21:55 League Shifts And NCAA Rule Changes
• 26:30 20-Year-Olds, NIL, And Retention
• 31:20 NHL Camps Versus NCAA Paths
• 35:40 Advisors, Influence, And Fit
• 40:05 Communication Skills And Habits Training
• 44:20 Leadership Lessons From A Long Career
• 48:20 Team-First Mindset And Playoff Grit
• 51:55 Closing Thoughts And Key Takeaways

Transcript

Matt: 0:00

It's a team game, right? You're you know, as a team, you're trying to find players that help your team win. Um, you know, uh a player that makes their team great is better than a great player. So you're factoring all these different things. You're you know, who's gonna show up when when it's crunch time, when the chips are down, um, you know, who's gonna put the team before themselves, you know, who's gonna add to the culture um, you know, that leads to winning teams. So, you know, the teams that have it figured out, they're they're looking for these players and and trying to add as many as they can.

Jason: 0:34

That was Seattle Thunderbirds head coach Matt Odette, and you are listening to the Up My Hockey podcast with Jason Penolin. Welcome to Up My Hockey with Jason Penolin, where we deconstruct the NHL journey, discuss what it takes to make it, and have a few laughs along the way. I'm your host, Jason Panolin, a 31st overall draft pick who played 41 NHL games, but thought he was destined for a thousand. Learn from my story and those of my guests. This is a hockey podcast about reaching your potential. Hello there, and welcome back to the Up My Hockey Podcast with Jason Padolin, or welcome to the Up My Hockey Podcast with Jason Padone. If you happen to be a first-time listener, we love new listeners, so welcome with open arms. Hope you enjoy the conversation you're about to hear with Matt Odette, who is the head coach of the uh Seattle Thunderbirds and has been for the last 12 seasons. That's right. 12 seasons uh in uh in a sport where it seems like the coaching carousel rarely lasts over two, three years. Matt has managed to be a head coach uh in the Western Hockey League for 12 seasons, so he's obviously doing something right. And uh it was great to reconnect with him, actually. And why I say reconnect is because we were both draft picks of the Florida Panthers in 1994. Uh Matt was a seventh round pick, and uh so we attended a few training camps together and uh got to know each other uh a bit there. We weren't uh you know fast friends or anything, but definitely remember Matt, and Matt remembers me, and it was great to be able to connect with him on this podcast after all this time. Uh Matt's had a ton of success there in Seattle since he's been there. They they won a championship uh after losing in the finals. They they lost in the finals in 21-22 and then in 22-23. They won the championship in Western Hockey League, ended up making to the uh Memorial Cup, and uh and didn't end up being able to raise the crown, but that was in Kamloops. That was uh some really good hockey being played there. Dylan Gunther was on that team and amongst some other real big studs. And uh yeah, they had a wagon that year. And and Matt talks about those those teams and how how tight they were and and and how that matters when it comes to success, whether it be individual success or team success, uh the culture of the group is is really important. And we cover a lot. We cover we cover the development path, we cover, you know, the the draft and and and how to how to identify 14, 15-year-olds, uh, what it means actually where you're drafted, you know, what what kind of runway that how does that change uh for the player? We we talk about birthdays late and early, we talk about yeah, advisors, uh, we talk about team culture and intangibles around individuals that uh maybe he looks for or sees and will give somebody an advantage uh over making a team. Uh we talk about the current landscape of the WHL, uh, which has changed dramatically, uh major junior hockey in general, with uh the NCAA rule changes and whether this is the first full season where these a changes have been in effect. So we talk about how the league looks right now, the landscape of the league, what he uh what he sees it doing moving forward, and um and yeah, some really interesting takeaways, you know, some really interesting takeaways. Even with the uh with the 20-year-olds in the WHL this year, which are for the first time in a long time, some teams don't have three 20-year-olds. So we talk about that and and the impact there and what that might look like going forward. Uh so yeah, lots of great stuff. Uh very eloquent, Matt was. Um, I asked him some pretty pointed questions uh that he that he handled great, um, put him on the spot with a couple things. Uh he's uh he's an honest guy, he's a straightforward guy, he's a straight shooter, he he knows what he likes, and um and yeah, and I thought he did a great job in this interview. So it was awesome to reconnect with Matt. Uh obviously, uh you don't have to be from Western um Western Canada or the Western United States to be able to appreciate a conversation with a head coach coach at a major junior level, as obviously the the things we're talking about apply across across the globe. So without further ado, I will bring you my uh my just over an hour conversation with Matt Odette, uh the head coach of the Seattle Thunderbirds. Enjoy. All right, here we are. Welcome to the Out My Hockey Podcast, Matt Odette. Thanks for having me. Great to be here, great to see you again. Yeah, man. It's been uh it's it's been a while, hasn't it? It's been a while.

Matt: 4:59

Yeah, Florida Panthers back in the day. 94 draft.

Jason: 5:02

Yeah, 94 draft. So, like I'm sure I mentioned it in the in in the intro, but Matt was, I believe, seventh rounder. Did I get that right? Seventh rounder and 94. Um, but Matt was a late birthday, so even though you were a huge dude, you're a late birthday, so you were actually 75 born and you're in with that seven 76 group. Uh, I have two sons myself that are going to be part of that if they ever get that far, you know, um, to sort of experience what maybe some would call that benefit for the first time ever in your in your uh hockey life to have it be a benefit. Uh I don't know, kind of random place to start, but maybe we'll start there because that's a developmental thing that has come up a few times on this podcast. You as a player growing up, uh, did the late birthday affect you, help you, hurt you, support you? Do you think it had any impact at all?

Matt: 5:52

Yeah, I don't know. I haven't really thought about it a ton. Um, you know, but I think with some of our late birthdays, um, I think you're you're maybe a little bit behind physically. Um, I think it, you know, you have to rely on your hockey sense and some of your smarts a little bit more until your body catches up. So maybe I had a, you know, I did benefit from that. Um, didn't didn't, you know, wasn't the guy that developed uh ahead of everybody else. Um, you know, I was a late bloomer physically. Um, so I think maybe that forced me to, you know, develop the hockey IQ side a little bit more. And um, you know, maybe that helped me develop. And once my body caught up, I could, you know, catch up and maybe pass some other guys. So um, yeah, it's it's interesting. Um, you know, I think that can happen. You know, I think we we've all seen in the hockey world the guys that you know mature faster than others, um, you know, and then they kind of plateau and and other guys pass them. So um I think in those situations, the guys that are late bloomers can sometimes um, you know, improve in other areas and when their body catches up, um, can maybe pass some of those other guys. Yeah, 100%. Well, you're a big dude. Like, so you said you grew late though? I did. I think I was I was tall, but I wasn't, you know, I wasn't filled out, I wasn't, you know, physically mature. Um, you know, it took me, I think I was later hitting puberty and you know, and getting some of the physical strength. Um, you know, I think I was, you know, when I got drafted, I was a buck 70 probably. Um, you know, hit really hit a developmental spurt when, you know, going into my 19-year-old season, I I came back at 205, so I gained 35 pounds in the offseason. So that was my big jump um, you know, from 18 to 19. But, you know, I think even in my 20-year-old year in junior, um, trying to grow a playoff beard, I had like two whiskers uh, you know, on my chin, and and other guys have full beards. So I was a little bit later with some of the physical development, right?

Jason: 8:03

Yeah, because uh to your point, like the late birthday, I can't I've never really thought of it to be honest at all, right? I was a February birthday. Uh, and that when you're growing up and you're seven, eight, nine, you know, you're not thinking about that. You're just thinking that you're in your grade and you're in your league and that's where you're supposed to be. But then getting into what I've been getting into, which is you know, development and player development and you know, high performance and all that stuff, and sometimes working with younger players, I started thinking, especially and then again with my kids. So, like my my youngest is a November 29th birthday, and uh, and he was playing up a league, like from almost all of his minor hockey. And I started thinking, like, my God, like at nine years old, like if if everyone else would just pause right now and he would get 11 more months of whatever, and then like press start again, like I was just like, wow, like that would be astronomically different for him, you know? And uh, and so I was just like, that was where I started thinking. Like, it's one thing if you're like ahead of the curve and you're a late birthday, but if you're like a little bit behind, and if you're a little bit behind physically, sometimes it's tough to be at the party to begin with, you know what I mean? And and and especially with the young the youth of the like where the WHL draft is at that 14 years old, it's like a lot of guys haven't even gone through puberty yet, and they're not even in the league, really, to be watched to get drafted, you know. And that's where I think it's like a little bit crazy is like, my God, they're not at the party, but they might be really good players, you know.

Matt: 9:27

Yeah, it's it's really hard. It's really hard to scout, and you know, or you know, having the the draft age where it is, you know, you see a lot of our scouts, they're looking at the parents, how big are the parents, you know. Um, and we see it with our guys three, four months is an eternity at this age group. Um, you know, when we when guys leave us at the end of the season and then they come back in August for training camp, sometimes you don't even recognize these guys. They've you know they've developed so much physically. Um, so you know, even and when kids are even younger, you know, that's amplified. When they're only nine, ten years old, you know, four, five, six months is a lot of time. Um, you know, you so you don't think about that until um, you know, you have some kids in those in those situations. But um, you know, that's why in junior hockey, if you have a a young team, it can be difficult. You know, if you're playing against teams that have an average age of you know over a year older than you, it can be very tough. Um, you know, so so age at you know, even at our level is is really you know, it's a big factor in team success and of course the the individual player success. Yeah.

Jason: 10:44

You mentioned that with the scouts, and I mean, since we're talking about it, maybe we should chat about like I I uh I mentioned on the pod before, but I did geek out on the draft a few years in a row actually, just to see when guys were taken and you know the percentages. And I and I read uh you know, outliers and some of these books by Malcolm Malcolm Gladwell that were, you know, talking about the the age correlation, even to players that play at high levels. And and it was interesting because the quadrants of the year, right? First three months, second three months, third quarter, fourth quarter, uh there was equal representation, like how you would maybe suspect uh the 25% of the draft was from the second quarter, 25% of the draft was from the third quarter, but the fourth quarter was completely underrepresented, like 10% of the draft was from players born October, November, December. And all of that uh percentage difference was shifted to the first quarter of the year, right? So, you know, take extrapolate whatever you want from that. But like for me, it's it's like there's no way that there's better hockey players born in the first quarter, right? There has to be just as many good hockey players that are born later, but the physical differences at that age allow them not to be seen or maybe not to be of blossom. So I was like, boy, like you have to be in my head. I was like, as a scout, I would be very, very aware of of the birth date, uh, especially for the WHL draft. Because again, you know, I mean, 11 months makes a hell of a lot of difference, you know? And whether that's a late round selection or not, or even somebody you put down the bottom of your list to go watch next year, you know, he's probably not going to get drafted, but you know, this guy can play. Um, it's just kind of wild, you know, because it is, it is uh uh it's a handicap. You know, I mean, I don't know how else to put it, right? It's a handicap unless unless you're at the party. And and uh and it's unfortunate, and that's where a lot of the kids kind of go away. And I guess my message to the kids that like, don't go away, you know, if you love the game, if you can see the game, like if you're enjoying it, like don't go away, like stay at it, stay at it. It's a long road. Um, you know, and somebody that knows what they're doing is gonna find you at some point.

Matt: 12:41

Yeah, 100%. Um, you know, we're we're lucky to have really good scouts here. Um, and you're right, you know, with with how much guys can change from year to year, um, you got to continue to keep eyes on all the players. Um, you know, guys pop at different times. Um, you know, so you can find some gems in the later rounds, you know, undrafted players, um, list players. Uh, we've had tons of success, you know, uncovering some of those late round picks and some guys that got passed over in the draft. Um, so so really important that you have a thorough scouting staff, and and we're really lucky. And you know, we we've hit home runs with some guys that got overlooked, you know, maybe you know, a couple years um passed by before they got their opportunity, and um, you know, everybody develops at different times. So um, you know, back to the NHL draft, if if I wasn't a late birthday, if I, you know, in my you know, if I if I was in the previous draft, I wouldn't even be considered, you know, I wasn't even playing junior hockey at the time. Um, you know, I played uh half a season as a 17-year-old. I was up and down with junior A, and um, you know, I wouldn't even have had an opportunity to be drafted um because I wasn't there yet. So um makes a big difference. And um, you know, that's why the best scouts are who they are. They, you know, they don't write off players that you know may have been overlooked um, you know, in a draft or maybe not have been drafted as high as uh as other guys. Um and I like the way scouting is as is changing at the NHL level. Um back in our day, you know, if you didn't get drafted in your initial um your first year of eligibility, you uh you know, it was unheard of to get drafted second, third time around. But now, you know, this happens all the time. We've had guys drafted, you know, their second year of eligibility, third year of eligibility, um, drafted as 19-year-olds to the NHL. So um, you know, that mindset's shifting that you know, guys aren't written off and and guys can you know hit their stride at different ages and and get their opportunity.

Jason: 15:02

Yeah, man. That's so young to try and figure out if you're gonna be a pro or not, you know, uh as it goes. And I mean, obviously the the the top guys are the top guys, but after that, I mean, there's so much more that goes into it, you know, as you know, other than just you know, your your your skill set, right? I mean, what are these guys doing away from the rank? And that's where that's when you know you give a guy two, three years that has a better work ethic, that has a better attention to detail, that you know, cares, cares about these details that coaches keep emphasizing, and all of a sudden, you know, it's it's now tangible, right? It's it's it's visual. You can see it, you can feel it. They're making more of an impact. And and uh, and those are the guys you want in an organization long-term, anyways. I'm I'm sure that that's what you're you're looking for, especially when they land on your camp at uh for training camp. You mean you probably don't have eyes on them during the season, but now when you're watching these younger guys come in, I'm sure that's one of the things you're looking for.

Matt: 15:52

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, obviously the skills pop, but um, you know, you're looking at the the hockey IQ, the character, you know, away from the rink. Um, you know, we put a big premium on those things. Um, obviously skating, you know, but that's that's even hard to you know kind of see how it's gonna be with guys hitting growth spurts and stuff. So it's hard to put a you know a final judgment on a kid skating, but the character, the the hockey IQ, you know, those are things that we really value. And you know, the other things, you know, can come around and can uh at times take more time. So, you know, though those building blocks, those foundational pieces, you know, that can project a guy to be a good player because he has that character, has that work ethic, um, can put in the time to bring his other skills up to speed. So we we put a really big premium on on those attributes for sure.

Jason: 16:53

Yeah. Well, and especially if it's like if you you could ever if you could ever define like a dead, a dead heat, you know, like if there's like two guys, you know, that are close or similar, and and if you look at you know the character and those intangibles that uh that I know that I value a ton, like to me, the guy with the better intangibles is gonna be the better player at the end of the day, right? Like if if even if he's a little bit underneath, right, like dead heat, even a little bit under, it's like this guy's gonna improve just because of the way of just because of his approach, you know, just because of the way his will, you know, his engine, like all these things that that are gonna push his skill set higher to oppose to somebody that you know you're you're visually seeing maybe a few red flags about you know, commitment, discipline, whatever those things are. And uh I don't know. I I just like bringing that up because for anyone listening to this podcast, especially the younger players, like the the you only think about what happens on the ice and that's it. You know, I mean, are you getting your cookies or are you getting your breakouts or are you shutting down somebody and then they think that's the end of it? But it's like it's so much more than that. And the quicker that these guys believe that in themselves, like the quicker it helps your development. I mean, plain and simple, and the quick quicker it is for them to make teams that they want to make.

Matt: 18:02

Yeah, and and it's a team game, right? You're you know, as a team, you're trying to find players that help your team win. Um, you know, uh a player that makes their team great is better than a great player. So you're factoring all these different things. You're you know, who's gonna show up when when it's crunch time, when the chips are down, um, you know, who's gonna put the team before themselves, you know, who's gonna add to the culture, um, you know, that leads to winning teams. So, you know, the teams that have it figured out, they're they're looking for these players and and trying to add as many as they can.

Jason: 18:43

This break in the action is brought to you by Iron Ghost Construction, platinum sponsor of the UMH 68 and friend of the Up My Hockey podcast. Iron Ghost has provided player scholarships at all four UMH uh 68 events, helping young athletes chase their dreams on and off the ice. Iron Ghost is where quality and safety lead every build. Since 2014, Iron Ghost has delivered quality-safe construction from structure to mechanics, start to finish, Iron Ghost solid, skilled, and proven. A proud supporter of U Sports in their hometown of Vernon, BC and beyond. Iron Ghost is committed to building more than just structures. They are building futures. Uh big fan of Iron Ghost Construction and the McCechneys. Um, here in Vernon, they have been a part of the Vernon Viper organization. They have been a part of U Sports here, whether it be Lacrosse or Vernon Minor Hockey, the Spring Programs, My Spring Program, the UMH Compete, and also in the Western Canadian event of the UMH 68, which is coming to uh potentially a state near you. Uh, so stay tuned for that. The UMH 68 Iron Ghost has been an awesome uh sponsor of them. So we want to support what they're doing here in uh in the oil fields, in in forestry, in uh in the mines. They build structures. If you need them, they uh they will do it for you. And uh I hope that this word of what they're doing and how they're supporting gets out there and um and you can support Iron Ghost construction as they supported uh the young athletes here in uh in Western Canada. Okay, there's a bit of mania around any draft, and and of course in Western Canada there's a bit of mania around the around the uh Bannham draft. Um I do think it's a year too early. I I think it's driving kids out of their homes too early and everything else that happens with with with that early with that early draft. Uh but my question to you is, and I'm gonna be fairly candid with this, like first, second, third, fourth, seventh rounder, like how much does that label a guy and how does that affect his status on the uh pecking order coming in to actually make your team?

Matt: 20:54

Well, I we I mean in the perfect world, you know, everyone's got the equal opportunity. Um you know, it's what you did previous got you here, and what you do from here on out will keep you here. Um, but you know, I I'd be lying to say that higher picks don't get um more of a runway, um, you know, more rope to work with. Um you know, you know, that's just that's just the way it is. Um, but you know, we've had several success stories of guys, you know, eighth round pick, um, you know, Reed Schaefer making the team and and you know, becoming an NHL draft pick, you know, Nico Majadovic's another one, he was a sixth round pick. Um, you know, we had a guy by the name of Jared Davidson was uh was a list player who made the team uh as an invite as a 16-year-old, which is very uh rare. Um, so you know, we we earn your place is kind of one of our core beliefs, and you know, we do live by that. If a guy shows up and earns his spot, you know, he's gonna get the opportunity and the chance to play. So we try to live by that as much as we can. Um but yes, of course, the guys that you're investing high picks in, you know, they're gonna get more of a look, of course, more of an opportunity. But you know, if if you barred your way in as a later round pick or a guy that's undrafted, uh you will get the opportunity. Yeah, I love that.

Jason: 22:30

How can maybe tell the story of that? Like how how how did that? Because uh I I appreciate your honesty. I mean, the same thing in the NHL, we see it all the time, right? A first round, like you you invest time, effort in the NHL's case, a lot of money, right? Like that this guy, this first rounder needs to play. Like they really want him to play. So there's gonna be a lot more, a lot more opportunity for failure and a second chance, third chance with with those guys. I think it's a little bit to a lesser extent than WHL from what I've seen, but they're still there. You know, I mean, usually the first, second rounder is kind of the guy that's there as a 16-year-old, uh, you know, for the most part, obviously, unless they fall flat in their face. And then other than that, you mean you're kind of scrapping a little bit, right? You mean like a fifth rounder is trying to get ahead of a fourth rounder, a third rounder is trying to get ahead of that second rounder. Um, but how would a kid who's listed come in, beat all the picks that you had? Well, maybe not all of them, maybe there was more than one 16-year-old there. But like, how did he how did he make so much of an impact to be able to say, you know what, we need to have this guy here?

Matt: 23:28

Well, some of the things that we talked about, um, you know, was just the consistently the hardest working guy, you know, every time we were on the ice, um, you know, you could see that he had some hockey IQ, um, you know, really showed some smarts. And and when you're up close with him working in practice, you could see that, you know, very coachable, you know, grasped things really quickly, you know, applied the things that the coaches were were telling him. And, you know, at you know, at this age group, you're trying to project what a what a kid could be. So you've got those intangibles in place. And he had a a raw skill set, but there was there was something there. Um, you know, but you he had all the the kind of the foundational things that you want that can lead to being a good player. Um, you know, I myself was an 11th round OHL pick. Um, I didn't know what I didn't know, so I showed up to training camp, not knowing that I wasn't supposed to make the team. Um you know, pretty naive. You know, our first, second, third, fourth round picks made it, and then I made it as an 11th rounder. So um, you know, it I have I guess I have a soft spot for those guys that really, you know, barge their way in and and make an impression and um you know give themselves a chance to make the team. So um yeah, we're we're looking for those attributes that uh can help a team win. It's not always the flashiest guys. Um, you know, of course we're looking for talent and and skill for sure, but um sometimes you see something in a kid and you can project him to be, you know, a future culture carrier, future leader for your team. And uh, you know, those type of guys are good to have because they not only help you win, but they rub off on the other guys and and kind of pull pull the rest of the guys into the fight, so to speak. Right. Yeah, no, I I I love that.

Jason: 25:29

And even getting back to your point, like it's more of a culture discussion, but I think if you don't have a meritocracy based team, you know, like if the if that isn't a foundational piece, like I think it kind of breaks down, you know, like you you have to be able to allow mobility and like for guys to actually see it, like holy shit, like this guy's coming, this guy got minutes, this guy made the team, right? Like if that never happens, I I think it changes it, you know. So I think that's awesome. And obviously you can't do it every year, uh, because I'm sure there's not that guy there every year. But when the guy shows up, I think it's probably something that you smile about because it's like, hey, this is something that we can endorse and we can encourage and promote.

Matt: 26:11

Yeah, for sure. It's it just um, you know, one of our you know, uh earn the whole earn your place concept. I mean, we fight it at our level where guys think it's their turn, right? You know, hey, I'm 18, and you know, it's my turn to play more, it's my turn to be on the power play, or it's my turn to be wearing a letter. Um we try to set the example that it's nobody's turn. You know, you can be 16 and play on the first line, you can um, you know, be on the power play at a young age. It's you know, just because you're 19, if you're not doing the things that you need to do, it doesn't mean you're gonna be on the power play or you're gonna wear a letter. Um so it's I think when you see situations where you can um walk the walk, I guess, so to speak, um, where guys do earn something that you know on paper they're maybe not slated for. Um, you know, it helps solidify that and kind of backs up your message. So um, but it is something that we fight with. You know, guys show up comfortable because they're 18 or 19. It's like, okay, it's my year this year. I'm gonna get my power play time. I'm gonna get, you know, I'm wearing a letter this year, and you know, that's not what we want. We want guys to earn their their their everything that they get, and guys coming in that are young or undrafted or late draft picks, they can earn these things as well. So I think that's really important. Yeah, I do too. I agree.

Jason: 27:47

Talk about your so so you're you're from 11th rounder to making the team. Like let's let's go through that. What what was your mindset? What did how did you approach it and why was it successful?

Matt: 27:58

Well, I think naive. I was naive, you know. I I was used to growing up, you know, trying out 120 kids for the triple A team, you know, from Oshawa. So, you know, you grind out through through those, you know, tryouts. And as a kid, some years I made it, made the triple A team, some years I didn't. Um, you know, I made it both years in Pee Wee and then got cut both years in Bantam, and then made the team one in midget again and ended up getting drafted to the OHL. So um I just was naive going into training camp and just tried to make the team like I would any other year. Um from there it was a blur. Um, next thing you know, I'm in a billet house and I'm at a new school and I'm and I'm like, what the heck just happened? Um, it happened fast. But um I think just being naive and going there to make the team like I would any other year, and and it's changing now, right? You know, there's not as many tryouts to play on some of these youth teams, you know, with the sports schools and stuff. Um so that can be foreign to guys coming to this level. Um, you know, it's just hey, I show up and I play, I've made the team, and they don't know what it feels like to compete for a spot and um you know, compete for being in the lineup and being on the team. It's it's foreign to kids nowadays. Um so that makes it tough as coaches to you know to send that message. Hey, some some nights you're not gonna be in the lineup. Um you know that that's a concept that uh kids have trouble grasping, partially because I think they haven't been in tryout situations uh that often growing up. So um for me, yeah, just not knowing not knowing what I don't know and just being naive and just showing up and doing the best I can and it happened to work out. Right.

Jason: 29:56

I like that about your story though, that like not playing triple A for. For both years of bantam. I mean, like that, that would be a calamity for for some families here that would think that, you know, it's it's all over, yet here you go, still end up in the OHL, end up being a uh an NHL draft pick. Was there, you know, what was it a natural development progression, or was there something about you in those bantam years that allowed you to step from bantam into midget triple A? Did you did you take a different approach or or do you remember do you remember that time at all?

Matt: 30:27

Yeah, I I'm not sure. I think, well, as I when I was younger, I was a forward and I was a pretty skilled guy, you know, up some points, and then I hit my growth spurt, um, and then they put me on the back end. So I was all of a sudden a defenseman. Um, so there was a position change there, and I think I took to it, I guess, you know, with my size, and um, you know, there was a you know a little bit of a shift there. I I became a skilled smaller forward to a big um defensive, I guess mobile first size defenseman. Um and then, you know, I just I I guess maybe not having expectations, you know, and and just having to grind it out. Um, you know, and I had the same approach going to the midget triout say I'm gonna do the best I best I can and see what happens. And you know, it's a good it's a good lesson in you know, all it takes is one guy to like you. Um so the you know, one one of the coaches for the midget team, you know, Killy Hughes was his name, you know, like me, like like what I brought to the tryouts, and and I made the team. So, you know, you might not be, you know, every coach's flavor, um, you know, depending on the tryout, but you know, all it takes is one guy to give you the shot and and it can change everything.

Jason: 31:57

Yeah, couldn't be more true, right? Like that's crazy. You've seen it, and you see it happen at the pro level too, like passed over, moved, traded. Somebody all of a sudden likes them, somebody gives them an opportunity never had before. It's a good environment. All of a sudden this guy's a player, and everyone's like, Well, why wasn't he a player before? Well, he fucking was a player before, you know what I mean? Like, that's some of it too, right? Like, some of these guys are players, but they just don't, they're not seen or they're not given the opportunity, or somebody doesn't like them for some reason, and then and then they get planted in the right spot, and it's like, holy smokes, now here he's here he goes. So that's awesome. I love you saying that because sometimes you can be super dejecting, right? You're in your own little hometown, it's the it's the same head coach every year. He's a guy that for whatever reason doesn't like you, you know, like it's just there's other guys, you know what I mean? Like once you get out of it, once you get out of that small, small little pond, the bigger pond, you know, uh I mean, uh provided that you provide value in some capacity, somebody's gonna see it at some point, you know. It only just takes one.

Matt: 32:52

Yeah, it just goes to your point that you made earlier, just keep grinding, you know, keep pounding the stone, you know, timing is everything. Um, you know, you you're not out of it until you quit. So you, you know, if you keep going, um, you get the right set of eyes on you, and then you know, you're off and running. So it's just having that resiliency, having that that attitude and and drive to to keep going, that's that's half the battle. It's totally half the battle.

Jason: 33:20

What um what do you say with tryouts? Just going back to that, because I found uh I started going to uh the odd one here in the last three years. Once my son got drafted, and I kind of got back into the thing. I went to a couple WHL camps, I hadn't been to one since my last one, like to just to give you the time warp, right? So we're talking 30-year difference. So uh, and to say the least, it didn't look like a tryout in 1994, you know that I remember. Uh so to your point, like these guys aren't really trying out. A lot of these guys are committed at young ages to teams, right? They they never really have to put be put themselves in a position. So I do feel like I'll echo that. I agree that like that the the idea of what a tryout is is a little bit foreign and and what maybe the makeup is, but I've also found that like the the storyline around it seems to be a little different, even from like an organizational side, you know, like it's it seems like there is maybe less real opportunity for guys to step in. It seems a little bit less competitive to me, you know, in general. Um, can you speak to that? Like maybe I'm off base, maybe I'm not, but like how do you how do you feel about like have you seen it change in a while? And and if so, why?

Matt: 34:30

I I think a little bit, and and you know, really recently, I think you know, there's some recruiting elements that are going into you know getting some guys to camp. So with that comes some promises and you know, some assurances and stuff like that. So that can affect the I think the tryout idea. Um, you know, we we try not to do that. Um, you know, when we're when we're recruiting players and you know, and and getting them to come here. Um, you know, we the message is hey, we'll give you all the opportunity in the world, and it's up to you to to take advantage of it and and and make the team. Um so I I think in uh in the recruiting world, it's it's starting to change a little bit because you know, players won't even show up if they don't have certain assurances and guarantees, and you know, whether it's ice time, spot in the lineup. So that makes it tricky. Um, but you know, the world's changing, you know, the landscape's changing, you know, there's more of a recruiting element to our league now. Um, so it makes it tricky, but we're trying to hold on to our values, you know, the best that we can and um you know give the opportunity, you know, we promise the opportunity, and then you know it's up to the player from there.

Jason: 35:56

Do you allow fighting in your camps?

Matt: 36:00

Uh I wouldn't say we allow it. Um if something happens naturally, then um, you know, then then it happens. You know, we don't come out and say, hey, no fighting, or um, you know, but it's neither we don't we don't like you say no, yeah. We don't know. And we didn't we certainly don't encourage it, that's for sure. Um, you know, if you're competing hard and and something happens naturally on the ice, then fine. You know, uh we don't want our guys squaring off or doing anything like that. That's not you know, that's not what our training camp's about. Um, you know, we want natural competition to to happen.

Jason: 36:41

Yeah, yeah, that's the best way, and that's really the way it should have been right off right off the bat. That was just like for for me watching some of them, like not that it was a no-hitter, but like even like the corner battles, net front battles, like that kind of stuff just seemed really like not there. And of course, if that's not there, there's not going to be any type of fighting at all, you know. Not that I'm running to camp to watch a bunch of fights, but it was just uh there's there's some times where it's like, man, I just it seems like there should be a little more fire in this environment, you know, for for me watching. Um, and as a head coach, I think I'd be losing my mind in some scenarios. It's a dad, it's one thing, right? But like if I was if I was blowing the whistle, I'd be like, come on, bro.

Matt: 37:16

Yeah, it's and some it's I mean, we go through it every year. Like, I feel like I gotta go down and and tell our veteran players, returning players, hey, let's pick it up here. You know, we're trying to earn our place, you know, nothing's guaranteed, and you know, remember that it's a core value, and you're a returning player that's that's supposed to set the example. So um, you know, every now and then we got to deliver that message in training camp to our returning players to let's pay let's pick things up and and start competing out here.

Jason: 37:51

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Matt: 39:16

Well, I think there's a lot of unknowns still, I think going to the season, you know, with the players, you know, some players moving out, some players moving in, you know, there's there's some parity in in you don't know how good everyone's gonna be, you know, you don't know the quality of the teams um, you know, right away until kind of the dust settles. So um still a lot of gray areas, still a lot of you know, feeling things out. Um, you know, I think the league's you know pretty skilled. It's a touch younger for sure. Um, you know, we're missing some of the 19-year-olds and the 20-year-old crop is not as strong. Um, but the youth and the talent, I mean, I think that's uh, you know, at an all-time high in our league. And, you know, it's pretty exciting to see some of these young players um excelling. And you know, I think we're getting the best um, you know, you know, the best crop of younger players uh you know in North America, which is really exciting.

Jason: 40:19

Yeah, and so I guess I mean what we're talking about for those who are maybe living under a rock in the hockey world is is you know, this NCAA uh Division I has opened up to major junior players, which was not eligible to Odie and I back in our day. We had to make our choice uh at 15, 16, however old we were, that once we once we played that game and put that sweater on, we essentially said that said no to any type of scholarship or any opportunity to play NCAA. And last year they opened up uh the opportunity for guys that are playing major junior to go back down there and play NCAA. So there's been a big exodus of some of the top players and you know, the Gavin McKennas of the world and and so on and so forth that have that have made this jump. Uh but in doing that, uh I think what what Odie's uh referring to here is that like the US players that that previously essentially only had one route and they were all told that they had to go play U.S. hockey and go play NCAA can now play Western Hockey League. So now like you're getting the entire Western uh you know geographic area there of uh that that is now a draw, and guys are are saying yes more than they ever have. So I mean that that's quite a big additional talent pool now for your league.

Matt: 41:25

Yeah, it is. Um, you know, really exciting in in that regard. Um, you know, I I think the rule in general is is positive, you know. I think for older players, 19, 20-year-olds, um, you know, now that they have the opportunity to go NCAA, you know, it extends their path, it extends their runway, you know, of playing high-level serious hockey. So I think that's a you know a really big positive for the players. Um you know, for the younger guys, it becomes more of a debate. Um, you know, it can can be sensitive when some of the younger guys leave that have eligibility, but um, every guy's path is different. You know, that's you know, the when we're recruiting guys and it's been like this, you know, forever. For us, it's you know, we're we believe in our program, you know, we believe it's a good destination, but every player is different and every player's path is different. So um for some players, you know, the NCAA path is a good one. Um, and for some, the WHL path is a good one. So we believe in our product and what we have to offer. Um and I think in a sense that message hasn't changed. Um, so you know, the other path is good and and so is ours. So um, you know, ultimately a positive for you know some of the older players to get more opportunity and a positive for our league to get some of those American players and some of those, you know, college-bound players to come to our league, and and now we're getting the most exciting, most um talented players in that age group all come into one place. So that part is really, really exciting. Yeah, that's great.

Jason: 43:09

The uh and it's so new too. Like that's the other thing. Like, I uh you said like a lot of some of these top 19-year-olds, you know, some of the 20s are are not available because they've gone uh obviously excited about what they whatever they're getting into, you know. But the the the call with the NCAA is generally quite old, and and even to go there as a 19-year-old is is young. And who knows what these guys are getting into. So I know when you're talking there about believing in your program, but you're also speaking about retention of 18, 19 year olds. You know what I mean? Like, do you want to stay here? Like what's the what's the rush in going to NCAA when you have another year left here and you might be going there and being a 15th board and you know, not not even really playing very much, which which I think is going to be interesting because I know if I was a player, I'd be watching, right? Like, what are these guys doing? Like what programs are they going to? How much ice are they getting? Are they actually in the lineup? Because that's a big decision, you know, as you know. Like, do you leave your junior team that kind of brought you in and and you know, and and and and brought you up and developed you, and then jump out at 19 and and maybe be in a situation that uh you it's not quite what it seemed, you know, as we've all seen that before. So I I am interested to see how everyone does this year. You know, I think it's gonna flush itself out in the end, guys are gonna be making different decisions, but uh, but there's there will be a vetting process, I guess, for lack of a better word, about how how it all how it all works out.

Matt: 44:25

Yeah, and that's the gray area that everyone's kind of waiting to see how it unfolds. You know, the next couple years, you know, we'll kind of tell the story and on you know how it plays out for some of these guys that did go over. And, you know, like you said, it is an older league, it is very difficult. Um, you know, and I think some of the team success that some of these teams have recruiting some of these high-end younger players will be a factor, you know, as well. How good is Penn State gonna do? How good is you know Michigan State gonna do, um, you know, North Dakota with some of these younger players, you know, versus some of these other programs that have older players. So you know, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Um, you know, the the younger players, it's you know, the guys that get drafted really high, it's they have to make a decision whether they want to sign with their NHL team or you know, explore that other path. And you know, obviously there's there's pros and cons to every situation. And um, you know, uh, yeah, it's uh, you know, obviously uh interesting times for for our league and our level. And I think over the next couple of years, uh, you know, it's there will there'll be some clarity and there'll be some you know more more of a clear path on how it's all gonna shake out.

Jason: 45:43

Do you think the WHL is ever gonna be like they're not gonna be able to compete with the NIL? I don't think, at least, you know what I mean? Like some of these top guys, like I heard Gavin McKenna, whatever he got 700,000. I think that's a year, like that's freaking crazy. Not everybody's getting that, obviously, by making the jump. But like I've heard the WHL is fairly archaic, and like I remember making 60 bucks as a 16-year-old every two weeks, and I heard that maybe it's like 150 bucks now or something. Like, it do you see that ever changing, or is it is there even room financially for that to change where maybe guys can you can be a little bit more in the same, you know, playing field where these guys are actually getting more than just a half a tank of gas a month, you know, to play?

Matt: 46:21

Yeah, I mean, it's uh that's that's over my pay grade, but uh you know, I I we'll see how that shakes out, you know. Is that even discussed though?

Jason: 46:32

Like, is that even something that's on the table? It I don't even I don't know how who makes it.

Matt: 46:36

Oh, I'm sure I am sure it is, you know. Um you know what the the you know the management and ownership levels, you know, they're I mean they're definitely talking about all the different scenarios and and things that we can do to be more competitive, um you know, in different areas. But you know, uh an interesting, you know, we have a player, Braden Coots, who you know was heavily recruited um to play college, and he decided to sign with his NHL team, and he was able to go to training camp and make the team at a at a training camp and play NHL games. So, you know, the guys that are going to college don't have that opportunity to go to training camp and make the impression and and potentially play games and start in the NHL. So there's that argument there. Um what team's he with? You know, uh he was with Vancouver. He's he's since been sent back to us, but played three games and um pre season, you know. So we got NHL like regular season.

Jason: 47:39

Regular season, yeah.

Matt: 47:40

18 years old.

Jason: 47:41

What was the story? What was the story about that? Like what was his experience? I'm sure you chatted with him. What were his takeaways?

Matt: 47:49

Yeah, it was great. I mean, he loved it. Um, you know, soaked everything in, you know, just you know, he's an Edmonton kid, got to play in Edmonton, Saturday night, hockey night in Canada, you know, play against McDavid. So that's a really cool experience. And and he earned that, you know, and and you know, he went in there and and made an impression and and surprised, and um you know, they gave him that opportunity because he went there and earned it. Um, you know, so without being in camp, without being able to, you know, put his best foot forward, you know, he wouldn't have had that experience. So um, and there was a lot of talk of him being there longer, you know, and pushing the envelope to to stay there and potentially make the team for the season. So um, you know, there's a few guys that are in the same boat that you know decided to sign with their NHL teams and they're getting that NHL experience. And, you know, some of them might stay for the season. Um, Kendall is one that's in Pittsburgh at the moment, another, another positive story. Um, so that that's you know, one of the things that players have to consider, um, you know, giving themselves a shot to go into training camp and make the team as a as an 18 or a 19-year-old. So, you know, Braden went in there and you know impressed the the brass and and earned his way onto the team to start the season. So, you know, really excited as as his coach and someone that's been part of his development to to see him achieve his goals. And um, you know, that that's that's the rewarding stuff at our level is when you can see guys, you know, earn that stuff and and go in there and and become NHL players. That was really cool. Yeah, that's really cool.

Jason: 49:34

The uh you mentioned the 20-year-olds that it's not as deep. That was one thing I was talking with Matt Bardsley the other day with Spokane, and they they only have 120 right now, which you know, if again, for those listening, like that's essentially unheard of. You mean like the 320s are usually like real core guys? Obviously, they've been in the league a long time, they're more mature, you know, their culture centers are usually big pieces of the team. And to be sitting there with one, and you know, and usually there's a fight, right? Like, because there's there's four or five at camp, you have to let a couple go. Uh, and it sounds like Spokane's not alone in that right now, you know, and like there's a quite a few teams that that that don't have three. Uh, do you see that just kind of being the trend, or are we waiting for the kind of the the things to filter out and and and and we'll have 20s? Uh or what what do you what do you feel it is for the 20-year-olds, like the future of 20-year-olds in the WHL?

Matt: 50:21

Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's definitely, you know, it's probably with the biggest impact. Um, you know, 20-year-olds that are good, um, you know, that are really good players are getting those NCAA opportunities and and starting that path, you know, instead of waiting one extra year. So um, you know, it's definitely lightened the caliber of our 20-year-olds. And, you know, I I don't know if that will change. Um, but that's definitely we've definitely seen that impact. And that's this decision guys have to make when they're at that age, you know. Do I do I extend my runway one more year and and play as a 20-year-old and then explore NCAA, or do I want to get it started um, you know, as a 20-year-old? So that's some of the decisions those guys are facing. And you know, no, uh we know it's really difficult for those guys, but um, you know, personally, maybe extending that runway and that pathway as long as you can, you know, to me makes a lot of sense. But um, you know, we don't, you know, we don't hold any ill will or anything like that. If a guy was, you know, to decide to do that as a 20-year-old and get started with a new experience, then uh, you know, we we would support that player for sure.

Jason: 51:38

Do you like if if they do make that jump as a 20 and now they're in the NCAA system, they they can't sign an NHL deal, correct? Until they're either out of that system, like until they've finished their their their major or until they're saying they're not gonna play. Like they could, they could they could announce that they're not gonna go back, let's say, for their sophomore or junior season, and they want to turn pro, but when they make that announcement now, teams can talk to them. Uh do I got that right?

Matt: 52:07

Uh when they yeah, when they sign their their NHL contract, yeah, they're um I'm saying before, like let's say a 20-year-old, right?

Jason: 52:14

So let's say a guy like Zach Funk, right? So he comes back for his 20-year-old year, scores 60, signs with Washington, right? Let's let's take him now in the current era. If he didn't have that 20-year-old year, didn't score 60 in the WHL, he chose to go to an NCAA program, and he has a good he has a good freshman year there, let's say. He he isn't signing a deal that year, right? Like no one can approach him while he's in that system, can they?

Matt: 52:43

Well, yeah, I they can. I I believe they can, and he would just have to make the decision to you know end his NCAA and and turn pro. Um you know, I think we see see I think we see that quite often as guys will you know play a season, and I'm not sure if they can do it during the season or in between seasons, but they can they can be signed and then um you know essentially they have to turn pro. Um, but I mean that's a debate right there, you know. Zach Funk, if he you know he has the big you know 20-year-old season and does get that free agent contract, you know, if he decided to to play NCAA, would he have the same success? Would he um sign the contract? Exactly. Would he have signed the contract? So that's yeah, that's just you know an interesting scenario, and then just an individual case, right? Every everybody's different, and you know, the path and what what might work for some somebody might not work for somebody else. So um, yeah, it's it's interesting. We there's tons of gray area, tons of debating, you know, over this topic, and you know, lots of little, I think, rules that have to be sorted out. Um, but you know, I think in the next couple years we're gonna see kind of we'll see it settle in in one direction or or the other.

Jason: 54:04

If you had your crystal ball, do you think the league get does get stay a little younger and will be a little bit younger from a perspective, or or do you think it'll get older or or whatever? I mean, I've I've heard both sides of it, um, as far as from opinions are concerned, and no one knows. But if you were to guess, what would you say it does?

Matt: 54:20

I think it will be a little bit younger, but not quite as young as it is currently. I think some of the guys that maybe not that that maybe don't have success going over at 18 or 19, you know, might make the decision to stay um, you know, moving forward. So that might make make it not quite as young as what it could be. Um, but I think in general the the league will be younger, um, but not drastically younger. Yeah.

Jason: 54:51

Because successful teams, I mean, if we're gonna be honest, there are usually 19-year-old teams, right? Just because of what we talked about this entire time, right? You two, three, every year you get older, you get stronger, you should be faster, you know, you should be all these things. So you're kind of projecting, you know, a guy at 14, 15 to be what's he gonna be for you at 19, really, right? And and and the thing is with some of these guys leaving, now it's like who is filling these 19-year-old spots? And that's kind of where I think that you're saying is like without having as many 19s, you are gonna be bringing probably higher skill level guys up, younger a little bit earlier. Maybe those guys are filling those spots. But historically, it's been successful championship teams have been 19-year-old teams for the most part.

Matt: 55:30

Yeah, 100%. And it makes it really tricky to kind of plan out your your path um as a team. You know, in the past, you could kind of map out your four years. Um, you know what you're gonna have, you know, when guys get older. And now it's hard to look that far ahead. You know, you don't know what your team's gonna look like in four years. You have to kind of approach it in you know, two-year chunks or even year to year. Um, you know, teams that maybe have a window to to maybe win a championship, you might see teams going for it a little bit earlier than they normally would. Um, but yeah, it definitely makes it tricky to to kind of map out, you know, what you might be as a team down the road. And right, you know, certain certainly is adjusted people's uh you know approaches and and strategy when it comes to you know their championship windows. Yeah.

Jason: 56:24

When you were mentioned earlier about tryouts, and you're talking about um, I don't know, lack of a better word, like promises or whatever, right? Like or you know, some of these assurances that that guys would come in on. Um, one of the questions I get asked a lot is about representation and advisors and agents and their role. And do you need one? And you know, it seems like every kid that's 14 years old and older has has an advisor these days. And you know, and for instance, like my son, who's an 09, drafted the Camus fourth round, he doesn't have one. I mean, I I've had some conversations with their with their GM, and you know, I know their director of hockey, so I can have I can I feel a little bit comfortable in that scenario, but I'm still the dad in that environment, right? And and um I guess from you though, from the horse's mouth, like are do they they seem to be more needed and more necessary? Like, do you do you feel that this is something that a player should have coming in? Somebody should be kind of representing them, having these conversations with you, uh, to know where they stand or whatever an advisor would do. Like, can you maybe shed some light on that for everyone listening?

Matt: 57:24

Well, uh, it's hard to say. I think, you know, I think nowadays it's hard not to be the guy without one. Um, you know, I think there's definitely some, you know, some some I I think in I think overall it's it's it's positive, and these guys can help you, um, you know, help give you the proper advice, help take some things off your plate, um, you know, in terms of dealing with you know, teams and management. Um, you know, maybe let the the players and the families focus on, you know, developing, you know, themselves as a player and and their child. Um you know, is it the end of the world if you don't have one? Absolutely not. Um, you know, they can be help, they they can be a big help for sure, but I don't think it's the end all and be all. You know, um you can certainly get get by, but the the they can have some some benefits for sure.

Jason: 58:24

Is there influence? Could you call influence? Let's even talk to the with the draft. Like let's say player A is represented by so and so, player B is represented by so and so. Are they adjusting the the the draft at all in any capacity? Do you think?

Matt: 58:41

I don't think so. I I think uh you know I think the good scouts are and and the teams that that do things the right way are you know putting the value in the player and and what they're you know what they are doing on the ice, what they can bring to a team, um, you know, try to kind of block out the agent influences and and you know pick the right player that's gonna fit the team. Um, you know, am I naive to think that some agents have more influence in in hockey than others? Of of course they do, but I think the teams that are doing things the right way, you know, try to put merit in the actual player and and what they can provide for for your team and and what what kind of impact they can make. But um, yeah, that's definitely an interesting question, tricky question for sure.

Jason: 59:36

Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I I I see it just like for me, just being a bystander, like I see and felt the influence in the NHL environment. Because, you know, for instance, when I got traded to Toronto, Donnie Mian had like almost half of the of the Maple Leafs. So now if I was a Donnie Mian guy, you know, there is leverage there for Donnie Mian, right? And leverage with the GM. I mean it matters. Sundine's contract's coming up and you know, and they're gonna have some negotiation. I'm sure there could be a discussion about, well, what about who so-and-so? You know what I mean? Like, can we get him in the lineup? You know, I mean, like those types of things I know are discussed, and I know that there is some leverage there, and they use leverage to help their players. But when I was thinking of the WHL level, like I couldn't really imagine a scenario where there's leverage, right? Like there could be influence because, like, for instance, you may have a couple guys that you know really well and you trust them because you have history with them and you know that the players you represent. And if he says to you, hey, this guy's a guy, you know, like I know you're gonna like him. Like I, you know, I can see that being influential in that way, but you're still gonna have to have your own eyes and you're still your own draft picks and all the rest of that stuff. So I just I can't really imagine a situation where that like influence to actually get something done and through a door or or to take you as a second rounder instead of a fourth rounder, like I don't know. I I I I I can't imagine those those scenarios other than the trust factor of you know, from a GM or from a coach to a to an advisor and just sort of getting a little bit inside knowledge on a player.

Matt: 1:01:04

Yeah, I I personally haven't seen that at our level. Um, you know, of course, like you said, there's you know, there's agents that, you know, just the way it works out that we maybe deal with more than others. Um, you know, I think ultimately these guys are good people. Um, you know, I think the ones that aren't kind of get weeded out, um, you know, but the the really good agents, you know, they're for the most part are really good people that, you know, have the right interests in mind for their clients. And um, you know, I think as a team, uh, you know, you you do not, you I mean you tend to not want to deal with the ones that aren't on the up and up. Um but yeah, at our level, I don't think we see too much of that. Um, at least I haven't personally.

Jason: 1:02:00

This episode is also brought to you by Elite Prospects. Elite Prospects is the gateway to hockey. Online since 1999, EliteProspects.com is the number one statistical hockey resource, serving over a million unique visitors weekly. Uh, it offers the most informative hockey player database on the web and has the most reliable transaction tracker available. And specifically for youth hockey players, EP is your very own online showcase to highlight your achievements and help secure hockey uh future playing opportunities. Coaches, scouts, and schools at every level of the game considered Elite Prospects their one-stop shop to discover future stars. Uh, they do have their verified profiles, they do have their premium profiles. My boys have them. It's a very cool way uh to see who is following your page, to be able to uh include your your accurate height and weight, uh where you're from, hometown, etc., your personal profile picture. Uh it's a great way to uh to track your your own statistics and for others to track what you are doing. Uh as a bonus uh as being a sponsor and uh you know, I guess, well, yeah, sponsor is the right word, uh, with the UMH 68. Uh the the people who play in in my tournament get their get their tournament stats uh up and running on their player profile at uh at Elite Prospects. So Elite Prospects has been fantastic to work with. They're definitely involved in the uh youth and amateur aspect of the game and uh and are really growing their roots there. So uh big fan of Elite Prospects and what they're doing. By all means, go out and see what they're up to and uh and get your your profile verified or uh get a premium profile from them as well. Are they become more of a face? Like do you do you find players less willing to make that have the hard conversations or to have any conversation to maybe knock on your door? I don't know what type of policy you have, you know, and or how you run your team. But you know, with with with these guys getting agents so young and and and a lot of times those phone calls come to you and not from the player, I assume. Uh well, maybe I shouldn't assume anything. Like maybe maybe talk about that environment, like the player coach environment. Now you have this agent in the middle. Like, how does that whole relationship work for you with how you like to run things?

Matt: 1:04:14

Well, it's definitely different, different times for sure. Um, you know, back in the day it would be unheard of of a of a parent or an agent calling to you know, calling the GM to to talk about things. Um but it's a different time now. And you know, Bill LeFords is is our J GM here, and he does an excellent job kind of handling those things and kind of shielding me from hearing about some of that stuff. Um I think in general we've got really good parents and um you know, like I said, Bill does a good job handling the age and stuff when it does come up, but um personally I prefer the the player handle their, you know, we're we're at a serious level of hockey. These guys are 16 and 20 years old. You know, I have a lot of respect for the guys that you know come in and you know want to talk about their situation, you know, with the coach personally one-on-one. And um, you know, instead of channeling it through their parents or through their agents, I think that's the right way to do it. You know, we're treat trying to teach our guys how to be, you know, quality young men and be able to talk about difficult situations. And, you know, we want to have that open door policy um where guys can feel comfortable and come in and and talk about their situation, talk about their ice time, you know, talk about their opportunity. Um, you know, I feel like we have created that environment where you know it is comfortable for a player to come in and do that. So I find that we don't have to deal with as much of the of the outside stuff. Um, you know, our players are pretty good that way in knowing that they can come in and chat with the coaches and and get honest feedback on you know where they're at and what they need to do to earn more. Yeah, that's awesome.

Jason: 1:06:09

I I I have found that like the I mean there's no way to officially test this, and I'm I'm I'm potentially biased, but it it seems harder, and not that it's hard, because there's still a lot of kids out there that can have conversations with adults and are and are willing to look you in the eye and you know can ask questions that are insightful, but it seems like that is becoming a little bit more of a skill, you know, and and when somebody can do that, it catches my attention, you know, and it's like, oh, this kid's a you know, whatever, uh a confident young man, you know. I mean, he can sit there and have a conversation with an adult, and you know, he's not giving me one-word answers. And uh, and again, I don't know if that's a product of maybe I'm imagining it, or if it's a product of, you know, the devices and on their phones and you know, I mean, head down and not really communicating amongst their social group as much anymore. But did do you see that? And do you appreciate it when someone is able to to uh to to be comfortable in in a room with you?

Matt: 1:07:01

Yeah, we really we you know, we we do see that, and it really stands out when a kid has that, you know, communication skills and that the ability to interact with adults and you know, firm handshake, you know, looking looking somebody in the eye. Um, and it's actually something that we teach. Um, you know, we have a habits meeting and we hit some of these topics, um, you know, try to teach these guys um you know how to try to develop the person, um, you know, the 24-hour athlete. These are some of the things that away from the on i stuff that you know guys can improve on and and you know be a more well-rounded person. So that's part of our curriculum, so to speak. Um, you know, all these guys are going to be interacting with scouts and having scout meetings, and you have to be able to, you know, make that good impression. And you know, we try to teach some of these life skills uh for our guys.

Jason: 1:08:00

That's awesome. Good for you. Because I mean, and then and again, like for the for the players listening, and you're listening to two coaches right now, like it's a it's a high performance habit that gives you more of an opportunity because Odie and I are just dudes, we're just normal guys, and yeah, we want good hockey players, but like if if there's something about you that is endearing that makes me think about you, you know, in a way that's like, yeah, this kid's got it together, right? Like now my focus is going to be a little bit more there. You know what I mean? And I just think it's not that you're trying to be contrived or inauthentic, but like if you can show up in that environment and it is recognized, like now you have the good favor. Now you have some positive energy. Like it can really be an advantage for you as an individual, I guess is what I'm trying to say. So, like, don't underestimate it, guys, out there. Like, take pride in it, practice it as Odie's saying, right? This is something you can totally practice. That's the thing I I believe with all my players. All this stuff can be learned if you want to learn it, right? You have to get a little uncomfortable doing it, but it is a big value add if you can do it.

Matt: 1:09:01

Yeah, I agree 100%. Um, you know, when we had when we draft players, you know, the first time we get to meet them and interact with them is the development camp. And I remember, I remember at clear as day, I mean, we had a guy years ago named Tyrell Bauer, and um we just recently drafted him in the second round, and you know, all the kids are showing up to camp, and and he shows up, you know, dress pants, golf shirt, you know, all the other kids, you know, are dressed in shorts and flip-flops and stuff, which is fine. I mean, it's not, you know, that's not too big of a deal, but he just stood out, and when he met all the staff, it was um firm handshake, looking at looking us in the eyes, you know, Mr. Odette, yes, sir, like, and that made an impression to us, and that's how he carried himself, you know, on the ice. He was the first guy in the drills, doing everything right. And, you know, we were maybe not the timer saying to ourselves, like this guy could be our future captain. Um, and sure enough, he was. You know, he's a big, big part of changing our culture, you know, when it wasn't in a very good place. Um, you know, and that's the importance of drafting these type of players with that character, it can, you know, be a cultural shift for our team. And you know, that first impression from from Bowsey, um, I remember it clear as day, and and that was so impactful for us.

Jason: 1:10:34

That is wild. I mean, and take note, guys, listen out there, parents too, right? Like it wasn't it wasn't a toe drag and an end-to-end on the ice, right? That that we were remembering here years later, right? It was an impression that was made off the ice just by being a stand-up dude, right? That was confident and knew what he was getting into. Uh, and players, like if you don't know your coach's names going to a camp, like and in the history of them, you're stupid. I'm sorry. Like, that is absolutely stupid to not know first and last name, where they played, like invest in where you have been invested in. And like, again, being authentic about that. Like, if I was going to Seattle's camp, I would know where Matt played, I would know who he played with, and you know what? It might come up in a conversation that can ask a question and be authentically curious about where he was, what's going on. Like, that shows interest, that shows curiosity, that shows investment. Like these guys that just show up and it's like, oh my God, you just don't get it, you guys. You don't get it. Um, but the Mr. Odette with the handshake, that's something you remembered. I love that. Speaking of your career, man, you played forever, like you like long, long, long pro career, um, successful pro career. What did you take away from from your your time as a player uh to shift as a coach? And maybe I'll even ask a preface it just before that. While you were playing, did you know that you wanted to be a coach?

Matt: 1:11:56

Yeah, I I I did. Um, I think it was just a natural progression. You know, you do something your whole life, and it's just it's like we've been in school to be involved in hockey. You know, it's something we've been training for, you know, since we were little kids, and it just felt like a natural progression for me. Um, you know, as a player, you know, one thing that I learned is you know how much being a good teammate and a good person on the team, um, how far that can get you. Um, my skills were deteriorating pretty quickly as as I got older, but you know, I really took a lot of pride in in being a good leader, um, a good teammate, a good person in the community. And I think that extended my career. It kept me in places longer than you know, maybe I would have been. Um, you know, because my, you know, as I got older, I, you know, I wasn't a great player anymore. Uh, I don't know if I was ever a great player, but I wasn't as good uh anymore. So I had to bring all those intangibles. And you know, that kind of extended my my time as a hockey player, and you know, I I kept value, you know, the coaches felt I was valuable to keep around despite my deteriorating, you know, play. And you know, I took a lot of pride in that.

Jason: 1:13:22

Awesome. So, how do you incorporate that into what you're doing now?

Matt: 1:13:27

Well, it's I think being a leader um on a team and being a good character guy, it's just what it's what a coach does. Um, you know, it's just a little different of a dynamic, but you know, you're still trying to set the right example, um, lead by example, um, you know, be a high character guy, be a fair guy, um, you know, hold guys accountable, you know, all the different things that, you know, being a captain of a team or you know, wearing a letter for a team or just an older player that's valued, these are the things that you're trying to do every day. And you know, it's it's very similar as a coach. Um, you know, obviously there's a lot more to it, but you know, the same core values and the same, you know, you you gotta be the same person, you know. That's and I think that's advice to anyone trying to get into coaching is be yourself, you know, don't try to be someone else, be the best version of yourself. That's what's gotten you this far in your hockey career, and um, you just gotta shift that those values over to being a coach.

Jason: 1:14:33

Are you a dad? We never talked about that.

Matt: 1:14:35

Yeah, I'm a stepdad. Yeah, I have two stepsons, 23 and 17. Um, yeah, I married my wife. My wife's from the Seattle area, so she has two kids. So I'm a stepdad now, so it's pretty cool.

Jason: 1:14:48

Well, why I ask is because like for me, you know, when I after hockey, and they you definitely learn a ton of stuff, you know, from leadership and culture-related stuff by being in a locker room. Uh, and then I got into business and I was, you know, in some C-level positions, like with you know, working with people and being a leader of people, but it didn't really hit me until I had kids that I was like, that I knew that I had to be the guy, you know, like and and it was like, okay, like how am I aligning here? Like, are my belief systems something that is aligning with my actions? And you know, and and I started thinking about all that alignment from like a foundation up, and and am I really somebody that you know I would want my boys to be like? And and obviously we we all have our, you know, we all have our warts, and you know, I did my best to try, and I still have warts for sure, but like having the kids was like a big thing for me. And then getting in ho involved in hockey in the capacity that I am in now was that next layer of that. And I love you talking about that because like I think, you know, being in the position that we're in, if you don't really freaking value it, you know, and and if it doesn't push you to be better, like I don't know what you're doing. I mean, because I think that's one of the biggest motivators, especially with the with the age group that we're working with. You know, it's like these guys need examples and they need leaders. And if we're talking about standards that we can't hold up to, then we're just full of shit, anyways, right? So it's like trying to do your best every day to uphold those standards in some capacity, hopefully be a guy that they can look up to and and uh and lean on. I mean, I I love that. I love that obligation. I think that's a great part of the job. It kind of makes me smile inside, and I and I thank the game for that too.

Matt: 1:16:25

Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, really cool to hear that. Um yeah, it's like hockey has taught us that, you know, the the adversity that you go got to go through, the example that you have to set. Um, and we try to pass that around on to our guys. We're mindful of that stuff. Um, you know, we're trying to develop guys to be better people and equipped to tackle the real world, you know, whether it's in hockey, whether it's in other avenues in life, and to be good fathers one day. Um, so that's that's all part of it. Um, you know, so that we're trying to we're trying to develop good people and you know, guys that are able to be good hockey dads one day. Um, that's really cool. And hopefully they when they come back and you know, 20 years down the road, they they bring their kids back and you know, can you know show them uh you know where they uh you know cut their their teeth and uh you know can show that off. So I think that's where right. That's why I mean ultimately that's why we're doing what we do, right? It's so rewarding. And um, you know, especially with this this age group that that we're working with, it's you know, it's it's you see that you see that the guys change right in front of your eyes, and it's it's super rewarding.

Jason: 1:17:48

Yeah, I think the game's amazing to teach that stuff, and I and I why I'm so passionate about it is because you become a better hockey player the quicker you figure that out, and you become a winner the quicker you figure that out. So, like being able to use this, you know, I call it a vehicle, right? Like hockey's a vehicle to hopefully learn how to become a great young man or a great young woman. There's a lot of great women that are playing this game. I just don't happen to be coaching any of them right now, but like, you know, like if if that game can teach you those intangibles, what it takes to be successful as a group, what sacrifice means, what discipline means, you know, what accountability means, uh, communication, the value of interpersonal skills, like all these things that for the average hockey parent doesn't think about that as being a hockey skill. Like it the higher levels you get, you said you had like extra years in your career because you were good at that. You know what I mean? Like there's so much there for that. And the best part is whether they go to NCAA, whether they sign an HL deal, whatever, you know, I mean, that will stay, right? That's better than power skating lessons. That's better than you know, your skills coach. Um, so that's why I I kind of love teaching the game from that angle as much as often as I can. You know, I mean, there's obviously a time and a place for structure and for check and power play breakouts and everything else, but the more times you can hit those, you know, the habits classes that you're talking about, like I love you talking about that. I think that's you mean there's more value there, I bet you those guys even understand. Like that's awesome that you're doing that.

Matt: 1:19:09

Yeah, I mean, that's that's really cool. And those are the good parents, right? They're you know, they're delivering the right message to their kids. It's not about, you know, what can I get out of it? What's in it for me? Like, can I, you know, how can I get the most points? It's being a some being part of something that's bigger than themselves, you know, how to, you know, give more of yourself into something to achieve something as a team. Um, and like you said, the lessons that are learned are well beyond, you know, can you can you toe drag or can you know beat the goalie in a shooto? It's you know, so many different life skills that are taught, and and the the good parents are the ones that you know try to echo the team first um message that the coach is trying to deliver, um you know, add value to the team in different ways, um, support your teammates, you know, being a good good teammate and um, you know, just be that high character person. Um, you know, the the the co the the parents that are echoing that message and you know thinking bigger picture are you know, I I find those are the kids that are gonna have the success in life. Yeah.

unknown: 1:20:28

Yeah.

Jason: 1:20:28

And you look at the winning teams that win, people love winners, you know, GMs love winners. Uh, and whether whatever role you played on that team, like you have now won. You know, you have learned what it takes to be a part of that. And and I mean, that's something that is invaluable too. And I think when I think from a coaching standpoint, that's when you have to like when we have to have that obligation to get that right, because there has to be trust involved that you know what, a sense of selflessness actually serves you at the end of the day, you know, and I'm here for you, right? Like I am here for your development. Yes, there are going to be sacrifices you're gonna have to make for the you know the greater good of the group in certain scenarios, but at the end of the day, I got your back and I care about you, you know. And I think when when that when those two things exist in a locker room, I think that's when you got something pretty special.

Matt: 1:21:14

Yeah, that's that's a great point. We try to deliver the message, you know, the team success is what leads to the individual success. You know, obviously NHL teams want uh want winners, and the play the teams that care about each other the most have the most success. You know, uh it brings it 2022. We we had a team that went to the the finals. Um it was such a close-knit team. Um in the playoffs, we're we faced elimination six times and we're six and all. And it's the guys cared about each other so much. The mindset was you know, one more day with the boys, one more week with the boys, and we just refused to be be put away. Um, you know, pretty pretty remarkable. We we were down 3-1 versus Portland and came back and won in seven games on the road. Um, we were down three two versus Camloops. Um, one fought back in one game seven on the road, um, you know, faced an elimination in the finals, um, fought it off, you know, in game five. So six and oh in in elimination games. We finally lost out in the in the finals, but um it was just that's just uh it was an example to me of you know the care that guys had for each other. They didn't hesitate to tell each other that they loved each other, like it was that that close of a team, and I think that's that's what gets it done. And and sure enough, that same team the next year uh we ended up getting it done and winning the championship. So um, you know, when you really got that camaraderie and that chemistry, uh, you know, it can be magical. That's awesome.

Jason: 1:22:55

You know, I think that's a great spot to end. Uh love hearing about success stories, love talking about what it takes to get there and and sending that message that uh, you know, becoming a great individual player means somebody else has to be great around you. And the more you can lift other guys up, the better you're gonna be at the end of the day, too. So uh don't forget about those guys that are on your line or your D partner or the backup goalie or anyone else that's in that system because you're all there, should be there supporting each other. So, Odie, thanks so much, man, for coming on. It was great catching up. Uh, now that I actually know where you are, um, gonna have to come see a game here in Spokane one of these days and uh and uh see you in person. But uh wish you guys nothing but the best and thanks for uh giving your time to the program.

Matt: 1:23:37

My pleasure, pods. Uh ton of fun uh being on this podcast and keep doing what you do. It's you're doing a hell of a job. Appreciate it.

Jason: 1:23:50

Thank you, thank you for listening to this conversation with Matt Odette. Uh, I really enjoyed it. He had some great one-liners there that I that I really liked, and um, and I'm sure that you were able to pick up on on some awesome takeaways. Uh again, I I if you've listened to me at all, you know how passionate I am about uh building the person behind the hockey player. And uh and building that person behind the hockey player results in better hockey players. Uh I love the correlation. I know that it works, I know that it's there. It sounds like the Seattle Thunderbirds uh also celebrate that and develop that with their habit trainings uh days and and those types of things. I think that's really the big game changer right now uh as far as high performance is concerned. Uh there's so much value on the other side of that puck, meaning uh in the dressing room, and and you know, what you are willing to do as a teammate, as an individual with your development, the conversations you're willing to have, whether it be with teammates or with coaches, you know, the connections you're willing to make, the uh the extra things you are willing to do, the the the understanding of your own body and what it takes to prepare properly, consistently to play your best. You know, the the building of the resiliency and the grit to be able to overcome obstacles and adversities and bad shifts and bad bounces. These things are multipliers, uh and they are nothing to do, as you've never heard me talk here about skating or your stick handling or your shot. These are amplifiers, right? So these are the things that allow you to push over the edge. And Matt said himself that boy, I played two or three or four more years just because I learned the intangibles of how to be a good teammate, you know, how to be a good person, how to provide value uh to an organization outside of what I'm even doing on the ice, you know. So uh those are lessons that can be learned the earlier the better, um because it will help you get your foot in the door uh for different places that you want to go. It will also help you stay there longer. And regardless of whether you become a hockey player uh and you get paid to play this great game, uh the principles are going to make you a better person in whatever capacity you are serving the community or your family. So super passionate about that. I love that he he struck a few nerves with me there when he was talking about you know what they do as a group and you know who they look for and what they celebrate. Uh because that's what Up My Hockey is all about. That's what I try to be all about. Uh that's the uh that's the soapbox that I love to stand on. And uh and yeah, I I know there's lots of people out there that do believe in that as well, but sometimes it's hard to put that into action. You know, how do we actually apply this? Words can be words, but how do we get results? How do we embrace that, you know, that culture and that environment? And uh and again, with Matt having like these habit days, these habit training days, like that's a real-world application where he is putting something forward that aligns actions with words. And uh that's a great step uh forward there for the for the young men and uh the Seattle Thunderbirds uh organization, and I applaud them for doing that. So uh yeah, I hope you guys took took some away here. Uh I'm uh I always love talking to head coaches, uh especially ones that used to play uh because the perspective changes, and it was really great to to talk to Matt about about how uh how that transition went and and what he looks for now on players. So uh I'll leave you alone. Uh but until next time, you make sure play hard and keep your head up.