Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
EP.149 - From the Minors to an NHL Legend: Duncan Keith's Journey of Resilience and Triumph
Duncan Keith reflects on his unique journey from being an undersized, undrafted player to becoming a three-time Stanley Cup champion, Conn Smythe winner, and two-time Norris Trophy winner. He emphasizes the importance of belief, adaptability, coaching, and teamwork in shaping one's career and legacy.
• The power of belief in oneself
• Overcoming the odds as an undersized player
• The pivotal role of coaching in player development
• Transitioning from junior hockey to professional levels
• The significance of teamwork and friendships in hockey
• The evolution of playstyle and adaptability throughout a career
• Celebrating collective success over individual accolades
These show notes provide insight into Duncan's impressive story while also delivering impactful lessons for aspiring athletes.
At the end of the day, I always had belief in myself. I know maybe everybody says that, but, you know, when I look back on my career it's like there was never a doubt that I wasn't going to make it to the NHL. And so if I'd ever heard, like you know, the scouting to me, I was always just kind of the mindset. I definitely had respect for, you know, everybody that put out their lists and who they thought and the draft picks that were getting drafted. But I always just believed in myself and thought, why am I not getting drafted? I never understood it.
Speaker 2:That was two-time Norris Trophy winner and three-time Stanley Cup champion, duncan Keith, and you are listening to the Up my Hockey podcast with Jason Padolan. Welcome to Up my Hockey with Jason Padolan, where we deconstruct the NHL journey, discuss what it takes to make it and have a few laughs along the way. I'm your host, jason Padolan, a 31st overall draft pick who played 41 NHL games but thought he was destined for a thousand. Learn from my story and those of my guests. This is a hockey podcast about reaching your potential. Hey there, welcome back, or welcome to the Up my Hockey podcast with Jason Padolan. I am your host, jason Padolan, and you're here for episode 149. Almost reached that century and a half mark and, yeah, we're celebrating the 149 episode by bringing on a future Hall of Famer. We had on Scott Niedermeyer last week and we're following in the vein of defensemen, and this guy will hear his name called one day to be assured, and that is Duncan Keith. Duncan Keith won two Norris Trophies for the best defenseman in the NHL, or, in other words, the best defenseman in the world. He also won three Stanley Cups with the Chicago Blackhawks. He also happened to win a Memorial Cup and he won some gold medals along the way and lots of other stuff. And it was amazing to have Duncan on the pod.
Speaker 2:We ran into each other, which we covered at the beginning of the episode, at a Penticton Panthers alumni event that the Penticton V's uh hosted just this past weekend and was able to shake his hand and meet him formally for the first time. I knew he was in the region, uh, but honestly didn't even know that he played for the Panthers uh back in the day. So he was a few years after me but was able to wear the uh, the Panther P and and the red and blue and and it was fun, was fun to get together for that event. When I was talking to him, I found out a ton of stuff that night that I had no idea. I knew he played for the Blackhawks, I knew that he was a hell of a defenseman, all-star Defenseman, award winner, stanley Cup winner, et cetera, et cetera but I didn't know his history. Like I said, I didn't know he was a Pentecostan Panther. I didn't know that he went to Michigan state uh, and then came back, uh, and played for the Kelowna Kelowna uh, not Spartans, oh, my God, the Kelowna Rockets and uh, and found out a little bit of his, of his story. You know he played in the minors.
Speaker 2:He wasn't drafted in the Bantam draft. He, you know he, he did get drafted second round uh in the NHL out of Michigan State, so it wasn't like he was completely unknown at all. I mean, that's a very high pick that he took, but undrafted as a Bantam crazy to me and with all the stuff that goes on around now with the Bantam draft here in the West and how many eyes are on everybody. And here's a Norris Trophy-winning defenseman that didn't make uh, the bantam draft. And and so I was like you know what, duncan, we got to have you on, we got to talk about your journey. Uh, I love hearing what I've heard so far and and let's talk more about it. And uh and yeah. So here we are, you know he, when I looked up his draft and I'm looking at it right now, you know he went.
Speaker 2:Where did he go? He went 54th overall. Uh, in the second round I counted it up 15 defensemen uh were chosen before him. Uh, none of those 15 won a norris trophy and I don't believe any of them won three stanley cups. He also happened to be the player from that draft to play the most NHL games out of the entire draft, class 1,256. And that's regular season games, not including playoffs, and we know he had a ton of those and it's just wild right.
Speaker 2:And he started in the minors. That's another thing. So he played two full seasons in the minors and we talk about that on the pod as well. And it wasn't like he was necessarily lighting it up. He did say that. You know his. The points that he did get he very you know he valued because he was not on the power play. They didn't have him on the power play. So again, like I just can't believe the magnitude of this story, because these stories just keep coming up and they keep reminding me why I do what I do, which is help players get better. It's so wild to see what can happen.
Speaker 2:You know, if you were to be in an arena at the time watching Duncan Keith play hockey at the AHL level and have 25 points in you know 70 games, I don't think that you would have had him in a Norris trophy winning situation four seasons, five seasons later. And yet he was. You know his, his, uh, trent Yoni didn't have him on the power play. We talk about this there. You know he was a gifted player and was not put on the power play for four seasons, um, and that was part of his journey to become one of the best defensemen in the world. So really, really cool stuff we talk about. You know some of the things that he did as an undersized player. You know he said he was 130 pounds when he started junior obviously not big, and that was in an era where big really did matter a lot more than it does now Much more physical era. So he was able to get by some some advice for for smaller players out there, we talk about compete and competitive spirit, belief systems, uh, how to learn, how to process.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of great stuff in this episode and it really was just an honor, uh, to have duncan on the show. So, yes, I think this goes right in line with the up my hockey theme and philosophy uh, that development is king. It's not all about, you know, natural skill. It's not all about you know being, in quotes, the best player right now. It's about what you can become. And for Duncan Keith, he obviously became one heck of a hockey player, had a long, long, healthy career and now he's continuing on with hockey, by giving back, by coaching his boy in the Penticton area there. So awesome stuff. I will not talk you off any longer. Let's get into the interview with future Hall of Famer, three-time Stanley Cup champ, two-time Norris Trophy winner, duncan Keith. All right, well, here we are for episode 149, I think, and I'm dealing with an ex-Panther alumni by the name of Duncan Keith. Duncan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me on, jason. It's good to meet you the other day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was fun, so, uh, maybe we'll just start there. We we both showed up for a Penticton Panthers alumni event. Thank you to the Penticton Bees, by the way, for putting that on. Duncan and I shared the same alma mater when it comes to that from back in the 90s. What do you think of that night? First of all, maybe we'll start there.
Speaker 1:I thought it was great. Obviously it was nice to see some old teammates that I hadn't seen in a while and catch up with them and uh, and then and then obviously meet guys like you that, uh, we kind of uh when we joined the panthers we had heard about but never got a chance to, to meet. So, um, you know, it was a cool night and it was nice of the bees, like, like you said, to put that on for us and remember the Panther days. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like seeing our old jerseys ripping around out there. I thought seeing the Panther P there and the red and blue jerseys was pretty cool. I don't know if I said it to you, but somebody mentioned that boy. They should have played that game in the old barn. That would have been even better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think somebody did mention that that would have been a good idea. I don't know if the players would have liked that on that small ice, but yeah, I definitely missed that old barn and it's crazy to think we played junior on that smaller ice surface.
Speaker 2:Do you remember the Civic back in Vernon?
Speaker 1:And that barn is special.
Speaker 2:Do you remember the Civic Arena back in Vernon?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they did the same thing and they actually played their game in the Civic. So I forget who they played, but now the Vipers played but the the, you know the. Now the vipers played as the lakers and uh and played in the civic arena before they ripped it down. It was the last thing they did before they they ripped the old civic arena down and like even for warm-ups, like all the players used wood sticks and stuff, like it was. It was pretty cool the way they did it.
Speaker 2:The place was packed, it was pretty fun that's nice yeah, it was cool. Uh, yeah, as far as penticton. So how did I see that you're born in winnipeg, uh, and I'm not sure if you were raised there or not, but how did you end up being a penticton panther?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, I was born in winnipeg and then our family moved to fort francis ont. So I was, I grew up there with our, with our family, and and when I was about 14, we moved out West. So I hadn't been farther West than Winnipeg at the time. So it was kind of uh an adventure, to say the least, on getting out here and and then uh settling and and putting down roots here in Penticton. But yeah, no, it was a big change in our lives at that time. But it was a cool experience. Got to be able to see, when I was 14, 15, watch the Panthers in that Memorial Arena. And for a small town kid out of northwestern Ontario to be able to watch Junior a games and and see some of the players and how good they were, uh, you know, that was really uh inspiring for myself.
Speaker 2:So it was, it was a good move, yeah so you came to penticton at around that age 14, is that? Is that how old you were?
Speaker 1:yeah, I was uh at the time, it was first year bantam, so it was my 14 year old season, and then I got to watch uh panthers players like craig murray uh he was drafted to went to michigan, drafted by the montreal canadians and uh he was a hometown boy. So I remember him and and a few of the guys that uh, I ended up playing with uh were still there three years later. What I liked about it was there was lots of hometown kids, you know, that were locals, whether they were from Penticton or the Okanagan area, so you could kind of resonate with a little bit and strive to be one of those local kids. Yeah, cool.
Speaker 1:It's changed a bit now.
Speaker 2:So you went to Penn High then as well, I guess, right, yeah? Cool okay, yeah. So I went there for for the one year in grade 10. I played as a 15 year old there in that league and that was with the Paul Correa era, um so he was in Paul Correa yeah oh, really wow yeah and uh, so that was really cool.
Speaker 2:I think that was his last year. So he went to Maine, as as you know there, and then won the Hobie right and got drafted because he was a late birthday. He got drafted out of Maine, not not from the Panthers, so I was there with with him his, uh, his last year in Penticton. So, yeah, I mean that was super fun, right To be around Paul, and of course we knew how good he was going to be right, but, uh, but he was definitely special, uh, and and it was fun to be on the ice with him every day. Did you for you, like I? I went to spokane after that 15 year old year because I, I wasn't, you know the, the way the rules worked. I just couldn't play as a 15 year old and in the dub, uh, wanted to go to the dub the next year and did I never really had my sights set on on a us college. Is that the direction you wanted to go right off the bat?
Speaker 1:uh, well, not really. I think partly because of my size, especially at the time when I was 16. I was like 130 pounds and five foot nine. So, um, I think it was just the right path for me and the timing more than anything, given my maturity as a, as a, as a player and and I guess as a man, you know it was back then. I think you know, I think you can get away with it now, but yeah, it was a good, good decision. I played two years with the Panthers, 16 and 17. And then just the thought process was to go to school just to get that extra couple of years or extra year of development and then be able to turn pro. But once I was drafted out of Michigan State after my freshman year, you know, we started to talk more about going to Kelowna. Then, halfway through my sophomore year at Michigan State, I left to go play in the WHL as a 19-year-old. I'd already been drafted at that time and physically matured more. I guess that was a thought process there.
Speaker 2:I was going to ask you that so you're not a late birthday, but you did get. Did you get drafted like one year after your first year of eligibility? Is that what happened?
Speaker 1:No, but the rules back then were that you couldn't get drafted if you were going to go to school, so I had to. Yeah, I wasn't allowed to be drafted as a 17-year-old and you had to be drafted as an 18-year-old if you were going to go to college. I know that rule has changed. Now you can be a 17-year-old and get drafted at a junior A, but that was the rule back then. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's kind of some weird rules.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you had a really good year there in Penticton, like the one that got you to Michigan State at least from a statistical standpoint right, 82 points in 60 games I'm looking here and then got drafted there out of Michigan State. You ran a high pick, you know, second round or 54th overall. So it wasn't like you were off the radar then and like kind of came on on the scene uh, you know that you grew a bunch or whatever, but you were. You were obviously being watched and people were recognizing that you had some potential, uh, uh, some future potential as a pro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I just think it was, yeah, just kind of the the with that, the rule, the combination of the rule and and just, you know, trying to um, to, I guess, delay things a little bit. So that, um, yeah, maybe I would, I would go higher in the draft if I was able to be a little bit bigger and and stronger, and, um, you know, I don't even know, maybe I wouldn't even have got drafted at 17 if, uh, if I was in the WHO right, well, is there there?
Speaker 2:well, maybe go back to that. So I mean being 130 pounds, as you said. You know, in junior, younger guy, you don't know any different at the time. You're just smaller, right, haven't grown yet. But, like, can you look back now and reflect on maybe some of the challenges or some of the lessons, or maybe even how that was a positive thing for you being smaller than everyone?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was always smaller than everybody. You know, I just felt like that my whole life, one of the smaller defensemen on the team and I always I was never really worried because, you know, I'm just kind of a late bloomer in that regard and you know, I don't know if it's genetics, but my dad is, you know, decent height and the same with my mom. So I was. I always figured that, you know, once I hit puberty I'll I'll end up getting some size, but yeah, it definitely allows you to to. You know, I think it it it as a young, as a smaller player, when you're growing up.
Speaker 1:I find that it it helps develop those I guess you'd call them survival instincts and in a lot of ways, you know, you got to keep your head up and you got to try to be quicker than the other players and get out of the way because you can't physically outpower somebody for a puck. So you got to be smart and use your brains and and your quickness and your skill. So I think that helped me definitely over the course of my career and as I got older and um, matured physically and and got stronger and um, you know, I was, I, I I got some decent size I'm still. I was still considered obviously undersized defenseman, but just always had the ability to kind of escape or evade and and then use my quickness to my advantage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a, that's an important lesson right there, I think you know, especially speaking to two amateur athletes out there that are on the smaller side, because it can be pretty demoralizing, right, like you know, always, always trying to fight that fight and feel like you can't win that fight. But I think you just have to fight the fight differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I never. This funny thing is is that I never really. You know, I I think you're right, it can be demoralizing, but I never, I never got demoralized. I never felt like I wasn't taking big hits. I was, um, you know, I, I always worked on my skating to to make sure that I I didn't, you know, get hit and and using my quickness and and that training off the ice uh, paid off. And I think it's that combination of being a good skater and and and working hard in the gym so that you know, even though you're small, you could still get around out there and and uh, and be evasive. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, I think that if you're a younger player, that those are probably two things you want to work on.
Speaker 2:Right, it's a skating game and and if you can skate and move around out there good, then you're going to feel confident yeah, yeah, it's just finding, I think, new kind of different solutions to the same problem, right, like there's more than one way to go get a puck out of a corner.
Speaker 2:You know, some guys are going to be bigger and they're going to use body position and maybe a more direct line to take it, or you can be a little more finesse right, and maybe a little more evasive and your angle is going to be a little different. Like I think they just got to be curious, right, about the game and using their, using their skill set, instead of just feeling like, oh well, every time I get in a in a battle, I get pushed off the puck. Well, I mean, you approach it a different way and that's kind of the fun part about coaching. Now I find and I'm sure you're seeing that now with your, with your boy right like to try and open up some perspectives on the game and and invite some of that wisdom that that you have from all the years you played yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:I think that's kind of one of the things that I've thought about a lot the last couple of years is how do you teach instincts, you know, and, and being able to anticipate the play. I think that was probably a big thing too. It's like you can be quick and and smaller or undersized, but you know you still need to be able to anticipate that play and what's going to happen, be able to anticipate that play and what's going to happen, and if you can, you know, see where that play is going to, where it's going to lead to, then you can be one step ahead and, uh, you know, that's that's important, obviously yeah, that's uh that's how do you?
Speaker 1:how do you do that anyway, jason? How do you, how do you coach or teach instincts like some of it to me? I've thought about it and look back it's like how did I develop, you know, instincts, and I don't know if it's just a combination of playing a bunch of different sports or just being able to ride my bike all day in the summer and you know, not be told what to do.
Speaker 2:You know it's not a great question, uh, I don't think there is one right answer, uh, but I do think it's fun, like that process that you just said, like okay, how did I learn this? Like that's the question I've asked myself a ton of times now, wearing a coach's hat, you know, like, how do I what I knew or what I was good at, how did I learn it? And if I, and if I do know how I learned it now, how can I teach it? And it's, and it's a totally different, totally different modality, uh, but I do think one thing is like I played everything growing up. I'm not sure if you did, were you? Were you an athlete or just a hockey player?
Speaker 1:no, I was an athlete. Uh, where I grew up in ontario, fort francis, it didn't have all the you know like a serious baseball league or too serious of a soccer league, but I I played all the sports and I was always on my bike running and you know doing everything.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I think I think, like, if you understand baseball, basketball, soccer, you know like there's different, obviously, the different sports all have different rules, there's different strategy, there's different areas to find space, like I think it all correlates, right an overall understanding of, okay, now your game on the ice. So I do think that's that that is helpful. Uh, the one way I coach it to answer your question is I talk a lot about reads at the older, like at the as they get older, right, more competitive hockey is like, what do they see? Like I can continually ask that, like when they've, when they've made a decision and they come off, I'll ask them what they like, what was their read? And a lot of times, like they haven't made a read, right, that they will, they will get the puck and then they will react and however they think they should react, instead of knowing what was in front of them before that puck even gets there and then making a decision. And I think that that separation for me is huge.
Speaker 2:Right, the players that that make a read, whether it's defenseman off the rush. Seeing that it's a two on two with no, with no support, you can play that way differently than a three on two with a high guy, right. You know what I mean. So I try and talk about that, I try and talk about that, I try and talk about concepts and strategies and try and reinforce that again and again and again. So now we're seeing a whole picture and then, when we see the picture, now we're able to act in that, within that picture. I don't know, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:yeah, no, that's interesting, yeah, I mean. Yeah, the game is all about reading and reacting right and and and figuring out what situation you're in.
Speaker 2:So the quicker they can make those, those reads, the better yeah, and I think, going back to our talk about, I mean, smaller players, like isn't that a huge benefit for those players right to to know where they, where they're, where your support is with that puck as soon as you get it. So it's a one touch of the puck and not three touches of the puck to get it to a spot right and get your head up, like that's that's the key like and I think that's
Speaker 1:sometimes I wonder if it's not even necessarily has to do with sports. I guess if you're, if you're trying to process information, you know I watched that uh I don't know if you've seen it that netflix documentary with uh, aaron rogers. Um, I don't watch a ton of netflix, but I did watch that one and, uh, I really enjoyed it. I I think one of the parts they talked about was his ability to process information quicker and, uh, and some of that maybe is just the way his brain worked and you know he did a lot of crossword puzzles and a lot of you know reading and you know whether it's it has nothing to do with sports, but you're getting a certain portion of your brain turned on and I don't know. I'm still learning myself here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. I think that's the fun part is you never stop learning, right? What are some of the things and what are some of the tricks? And that's really interesting to me when it comes to Michigan State. So it's super interesting to me, like that, you went to the university route and then came back to major junior which doesn't always happen, you know and you said it's not like there was a discussion there with your agent like what was that all about? Why did you choose to leave a great school like michigan state to come to come to kelowna?
Speaker 1:uh well, I guess first and foremost just the opportunity to play for the Rockets. You know such a great organization with Bruce and the Hamilton family. It was always first class and I did have the opportunity to go watch a few games when I was younger and you know so there was a bit of a nostalgia there to be able to put on a Rocket uniform, but yeah, it was a tough decision. A nostalgia there to be able to put on a rocket uniform, but yeah, it was a tough decision. It was hard. You know you're leaving your team voluntarily.
Speaker 1:I was close with the guys at Michigan State and I had a great time at Michigan State. I learned a lot. I had great coaches I had. My first year was Ron Mason. My second year, for that second half, was Rick Comley. So it was more of just a decision based on where I was at my age and the fact that I could sign a contract with Chicago sooner. But yeah, no, once I felt like once I got to Kelowna I was in the right place. I don't want to say I didn't like school, but there wasn't a whole lot of schooling going on where I grew up in Port Francis Not to say that it's bad schooling there.
Speaker 1:I'm not putting that out there, but it was just a different vibe. Hockey's my life and it's been my life. I wanted to be a hockey player and then, all of a sudden, you know, when you go to school you do have to put a lot of time into your schooling, and for me, that was hard. It was, you know, it was a lot, and so I just preferred that focus to be on hockey. And, and when you're in the WHL, you're playing 72 games. I think they still play 72 now, don't they? Um 68, 68, yeah, okay, so you know, and it just felt like more of a pro schedule and, yeah, it was just, you know the the right timing for me to be able to be closer to signing with Chicago.
Speaker 2:Right. Can you contrast the games for me, if you can remember at that time? I know both leagues have evolved since you were there, but how would you compare the style of play from major junior to D1?
Speaker 1:Well, at the time at Division I, 1 College, there was no red line rule, so it was kind of the way the game is now it was fast paced and it seemed a little more chaotic, you know. And then when I got and when I say chaotic I don't mean it in a bad way, I just mean it that it was fast paced and you know the puck is up at the goal line. The next thing, you know, it's it's at the top of the far blue line and uh, you know. So there's adjustments there. And when I went to the whl they still had the red line in place so you couldn't make two line passes. So it was. It was more of a controlled uh uh game in that regard, where it was more kind of methodical, moving slower up the ice. So that was definitely an adjustment.
Speaker 1:I felt like the players in the WHL were in general a little bit younger. You get 16 and 17 year olds and, and obviously 18 year olds and 19, 20 year olds, but sometimes in college you're getting a guy that's a 21-year-old freshman and by the time he's a senior, he's 24, 25 years old. So you're playing against grown men at college and both leagues were great experiences for me and, yeah, I wouldn't change anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, especially you won a championship in Kelowna, right, you guys won the Memorial Cup there that year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we had a good team, so I think that always helps too. When I got there, they were in the middle of a winning streak and we just kind of carried that on and yeah. So anytime you're part of a winning group, it always makes it feel better. But, yeah, I, anytime you're part of a winning group, it always makes it feel better. But yeah, I still keep in contact with a lot of those guys that I played junior with in Kelowna and yeah, it's great memories there for sure.
Speaker 2:Well, I opened up your hockey DB on that team and I had no idea. But for those listening, so this Kelowna Rockets team that won the Memorial Cup had Duncan Keith, the two-time Norris winner, uh, shea Weber, like hockey hall of famer I don't know if he won a Norris or not, but you know hockey hall of famer, he was 17 at the time and also, uh, josh George is on the back end, who I don't know how many NHL games he played, but I mean had to be over 500. So you know, pretty, pretty good decor there.
Speaker 1:I'd say yeah and the leading scorer for our decor was Thomas Slovak. He was the second-round pick for the Avalanche. He didn't make it to the NHL, but he led the whole WHL in points that year, so we had a solid decor. Mike Card was on that team too, and he's a former Penticton Panther and he played a few games for buffalo as well. So, yeah, we had a solid decor and, uh, some good forwards there too that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Let's take a quick break from my discussion with Duncan to actually ask a question. The question is does someone out there want to participate in a guided mission as we approach February, march of 2025? I think it's a great time to bring one on. Historically I have done it in the past. I think it's great to get ready for playoffs. I think it's great to tune things up to get ready for the tryout season which happens after playoffs. There's lots of value to you know. Tune things up to get ready for the tryout season which happens after playoffs. Uh, there's lots of value to individuals. Uh, but I am like flat out busy right now and wasn't sure if I was going to offer it. But the thing is is I have a really hard time saying no to players that want to get better. So if this is something that I should offer, I'd love just to build the cohort now and know that there is interest and not go through the work it takes sometimes to fill a guided mission. So, yeah, looking for anyone who's interested, you can go on the website, reach out in the contact form. You can email me, jason at upmyhockeycom, say hey, yes, I am interested Another way to express interest to me and a way to get me to get in touch with you is to complete the mindset quiz, which is on my website. I believe it's also on my Instagram. The mindset quiz there gives you an idea of what we would be working on within the guided mission, which is the Peak Potential Hockey Project, my signature program for hockey players who want to connect personal development and mindset to their game, uh, so the mindset quiz will connect you to that. I'll ask you questions, uh, that pertain to some of the curriculum items and some of the action steps that we'll be working on, and then that comes to me. Obviously, I get to see your results and uh would let me know that. Yes, you can put in the notes that, yes, we are interested in having uh or joining a guided mission pre-playoffs. So yeah, that's it. We have one going right now. We got eight players, or nine players in, I think, from all across North America Rolling well in the first week. I love seeing the breakthroughs. These players make so much fun working with them and we do roll these out throughout the year. I was going to take a break, like I said, until until the summer. August is always a very popular time for for the program. But if there is people out there that want to do it and want to reach out, then I will make it happen for you. So, all right, let's get back to the uh conversation with Duncan Keith.
Speaker 2:Duncan Keith, I'm going to continue on just with, like your, your own personal development, because what an arc you mean to me, at least it looks like for me. You know what I mean. There's not a ton of guys that went to Norris trophy first of all and I'm probably fewer that I would say that you know come from a, from the second round or even start in the minors. You know like which that. I would say that you know come from the second round or even start in the minors. You know like which. I love that, I love that. I love that evolution. So you know you go from winning a Memorial Cup in Kelowna to two full seasons in the AHL with Norfolk. How did that help you? One for your development and two, if it did, did it help you stay grounded as an NHLer to have that experience as as an AHL player?
Speaker 1:yeah for sure. I think at the end of the day, I always had belief in myself and I know maybe everybody says that, but, uh, you know, when I look back on my career, it's like there was never a doubt that I wasn't going to make it to the NHL. And so if I'd ever heard, like you know, the scouting to me, I was always just kind of the mindset I definitely had respect for, you know, everybody that put out their lists and who they thought and the draft picks that were getting drafted. But I always just believed in myself and thought like, you know, why am I not getting drafted? I never understood it, and you know. But you can see how kind of hard it is to project, obviously for for younger players, and I think for me it was just a matter of that.
Speaker 1:There was a lot, of, a lot of good coaching. I had Trent Yanni. I was fortunate to be drafted by chicago and and I and I, uh, yeah, really grateful that I, I went there because I had trent yanni, who played about six, seven hundred games in the nhl as an nhl defenseman and he was our head coach and he took the time with all of us defensemen and, uh, and all the players really, and I guess he believed in me too and it wasn't. So I finally had the time where it was like, you know, you don't have to go into the corner and just hammer a guy and be physical, you can use your quickness and use your quick stick to break up plays. And so that to me was a big, I think, a big change, or a big turning point too, in my career, where it was finally somebody that was, you know, allowing me to use my strengths as a player, uh, to to defend.
Speaker 1:Everybody talks about quickness and speed to to create offense, but you know how, about some quickness and speed to defend? And, um, you know, so, yeah, definitely Trent. And I think Trent is still coaching I think he's in Detroit now and as an assistant there. And you know, it's just no surprise that wherever he goes, wherever he's with, he kind of he helps all those young defensemen. So I'm really fortunate that I had him early on in my career. That kind of set a a big foundation for for the rest of my career, right yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 2:So you talked about belief. Uh, to me that falls under my term of like mindset, which is what I try and help players with, and I do think that's an integral part of of you mean, high performance, peak potential, right like being your best. Where. How did you cultivate that if you, if you could even answer that question like where, where did you feel that belief came from, and and why was it so inherent within you?
Speaker 1:well, I don't know. That's a good question, I think, for, for one, I, as a young kid, I I always the desire to be in the NHL was, was high, and you know, I think it's. You know, you can make an argument that everybody says that or, you know, everybody had a high desire to to be there, but for me it wasn't. It almost wasn't like a belief. A belief to me is kind of like you're you're trying to convince yourself. For me it was. It was either, you know, yeah, to me it was, I was just I wasn't in the NHL and then I wasn't until I was there.
Speaker 1:It was like something I either either knew or I didn't know.
Speaker 1:You know, and I knew that I would get there eventually and so it was just a matter of time and, um, you know, I guess at that point in my life it's you don't know that you're going to be there, but you just, you just stay where you're at right now and focus on just getting better every day.
Speaker 1:And I knew that I was willing to put in a lot of work and I think that's one of the things that I'm most proud about about my career is that the work ethic that I had and the drive to continue to get better. I think you know you look at young players nowadays and everybody wants to be the best at a certain age and certainly it's good to be up there towards the top. But you know it's a marathon and you know I always had my dad telling me that that it's a marathon, not a sprint, and you just continue to work at your game and put in more work than anybody else and then you just slowly just continue to pass people and continue to get better and continue to rise, uh, higher and higher.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what? Uh. So when you say getting better every day and you know putting in the work, what did that look like for for a younger Duncan Keith?
Speaker 1:Uh well, I think I do think the game has changed a lot now, where you know kids are, you know, putting in lots of work, you know in lots of work, you know.
Speaker 1:But when I was growing up and when you were growing up, I don't think the emphasis was there quite as much.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying it wasn't there, but I just I just think the you know, the whole industry of whether it's a skills coach or, um, you know, working on your skills, or a skating coach or a strength coach, and personal trainers and and those whole industries have kind of taken off. So, um, you know, players are trying to be dialed in earlier and earlier, where for me I never really had any of that, other than I had power skating lessons once a week and it was from a figure skater instructor and that was kind of my skating coach and it was on the outdoor rinks and and I just knew that if I, if I could get quicker, basically survival I was smaller so I didn't want to get killed out there knowing that, hey, some of these guys are pretty big and they're going to come try to take your head off on the forecheck. So you know you might want to work on your, your strength and being quick so you could get back and um being scared more than anything right, right, right, what?
Speaker 2:what? How about we, if we, if we maybe compartmentalize it and take it from the ahl scenario? So I mean, you come off a mario club, you go to the AHL. You mentioned Trent Yanni, a great you know mentor and motivator for you and coach to help you In that pro environment where you know you're on the ice every day, you're playing a ton of games, you're traveling on the bus, a ton. Do you feel like, how are you differentiating yourself with your professionalism or your approach to your own personal development in that, in that era of your career?
Speaker 1:I don't really understand what you mean. What do you what, what? What do you mean when you're like well what I'm.
Speaker 2:So I'm saying like, okay, so there'd be workouts. I'm just trying to remember, like when I was in St John's right, like there some guys would leave right after practice, some guys would stay, some guys would stay on the ice longer, some guys would have their own you know, their own method for for trying to get to that next level for trying to be better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes sense. I mean, I don't know, I think some of the guys that played with me would probably laugh, you know, because I kind of always uh, my guess what's the term beat to your own drum a little bit, you know, and have my own way of doing things. And you know, I, yeah, I think, like I don't want to say that I felt like, you know, the off seasons were important for me. I didn't really whether it was when I was 15, 14, 15, you know, going back to those days where I was worried that my buddies would be getting better than me back home in Ontario because we had outdoor rinks and here there was no outdoor rinks. So I became obsessed with plyometrics and shooting pucks and putting in so many hours that I thought all my buddies back home are going to be on the outdoor rink getting better than me. And then it just kind of progressed and at 17, 16, 17, 18, it's like I didn't really, you know, have much of a life in the off seasons and it was just kind of focused on getting better, you know, all day really, and just thinking that you know I'm going to put more work in than anybody and prove people wrong.
Speaker 1:And I think some of it had a. You know, maybe I did have a bit of a chip on my shoulder for for being a little bit smaller, and you know, you hear you see other players getting talked about or, you know, drafted higher and and I'm sitting there thinking like, why am I not getting? Why, what are these scouts not seeing? And and I don't think it was any different than when I went to to play in the minors. It was just kind of that, that same mindset that just carried on and um, and then, like I said, yeah, I was fortunate to have a great coach and and great teammates too. You know, like, uh, I think I think, looking back to it, I I feel like I, I, I use my teammates to my advantage in the sense where you're learning from them all the time. You know you're learning and getting better from your teammates, whether it's practice or just how they do things, and and always kind of taking in and and seeing what they do. And, um, you know some things you took to, you take and you keep, and then other things you you don't like and you throw it out. But, um, yeah, just trying to learn from everybody and and we had great.
Speaker 1:I get a great leadership by just talking to aj baines. He was a old Kamloops Blazer captain and he was our captain in the minors and so we had great leadership there. Marty Wilford was another guy. He never played in the NHL but he could have arguably been. Had he been a better skater, he could have been playing for 20 years in the NHL. I never saw him miss a pass in practice. It was. It was. It was honestly uh, little things like that that you kind of learn. It's like I learned so much from those guys and and they weren't, uh, you know, regular, everyday NHL players.
Speaker 2:So you just continue to learn and, and you know, take things from your teammates and, and obviously, your coaches did you, um, because I mean I'm looking, I got your, I got your your db up right now and I'm and I'm, and I'm looking at it and in your years in norfolk, so like 25 points and 26 points, you know, as a 21 and 22 year old, or 20 and 21 year old, uh, obviously nothing wrong with those stats, but I mean, for somebody looking at that, at the time I probably wouldn't have projected you to be a norris trophy winner in five seasons after that. Right, you know like to look at that and that's exciting to me. So, like did you, did you see that coming for you? Like, did you think that that was a potential? Like, where was that internal belief and and and with that development arc that you had?
Speaker 1:well. Well, I just knew that it was always there. I think it's easy to look at those stats and say, you know, like you said, 25 points or whatever it was, 21 points, 26 points. It's nothing special.
Speaker 1:But if you'd been following along my career day to day and seeing what I was going through, it was, you know, very different than something like that. You know, it's like I I wasn't even on the power play um, the first, I think, four or five years of my pro career, you know. So part of that was Trent uh, basically trying to rewire me into, you know, because I was jumping into the play, offensive and this and that. But he was trying to get me to think more defense, just focus on defense. Now you're just a defenseman, you're going to be quick defensively, use your speed and quickness to break up plays and then create offense that way, and so that's kind of how the foundation of my game was set, you know, and even going into the first two years in Chicago, it was like there was no power play time.
Speaker 1:You know what it's like when you get on the power if you're not on the power play at all. I wasn't even on a second unit. You're just trying to get. You know you're trying to make plays five on five. It's it's, you know, at pro, at the pro level, it's nice to get those cookies and you get those extra touches, and that's where the defensemen that get a lot of points they're on the power play. So I think I always kind of knew I had that in my game and it was just kind of resetting everything to focus on the defense and then being able to balance things out once I did get that opportunity to play on the power play.
Speaker 2:What an amazing correlation.
Speaker 2:Like I think I told you at the game there that I had Scott Niedermeyer on who, his episodes getting released actually today.
Speaker 2:One of the things that he talked about playing for Jacques Lemaire was the frustration that he personally had with how Jacques wanted him to play Right and how he wanted him to be a defense mind, defensively minded, almost defense first type of player at the beginning of his career and and he kind of felt like he had reins on him, you know, and he said for like a couple years it was super, super frustrating for him but then once he got it like kind of his world changed a little bit, right. I mean, obviously they won, they won cups, you know, because of it, his, you know, he said just his evolution of a player, and he wouldn't, he didn't, he didn't think he would have been the player he was without that, I mean that experience that he had, which he hated at the time, right, like, how did you feel about it? Did you feel like you were being held back? Or did you feel like hey, hey, I'm learning something that's going to benefit me here down the road?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know what I knew, that you know, at 20 years old I wasn't ready to play in the NHL. So when Trent's coming to me and telling me what to do, you know I'm all ears. He's played 700 games in the league and you know I believed anything he said. And um, and then at 21 there was no NHL. So that was another year for me, that was the year-long lockout. So that year you knew you were going to be in the minors and I know I'm not on the power play, it's just.
Speaker 1:You know I started to develop some confidence that year, especially knowing, uh, I'm, you know, playing against guys like Jason Spezza, who was in the NHL the year prior, and other players that were on still on their entry level deals and and I feel like I'm shutting these guys down and uh, maybe it wasn't, it was probably minus a time or two, but you know, you definitely get some confidence from that and and you know to and, and yeah, just to know that. Okay, well, I'm playing against these guys in the, these guys that were in the NHL the year prior and I'm doing well against them.
Speaker 1:And then you make it to the NHL at 22, 23. And you know, as time went on there I felt like, okay, I kind of do feel like I'm being held back a little bit and I'm still not on the power play. And it wasn't until I was about 24 that I got on there on a second unit. And so, yeah, and you just kind of you, finally, you know, break through on the power play and you're, you know, I guess, have a little success and you know, coach keeps putting you out there Right.
Speaker 2:But the defensive side of the game for a defenseman is really ultimately crucial, you know, so it sounds like the longevity of your career. You know the success within the team, success of, like, winning these Stanley Cups and also winning your individual awards. You know, winning your individual awards, you know you were a complete player. I guess, let's be honest, right Like you weren't a one-trick pony, you could defend. You're a 200-foot defenseman and so maybe those formative years of Norfolk and Chicago was really one of the things that helped you become that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really do believe that. I mean, I think that, uh, I think probably, you know, if I really look back on my career, even going back to minor hockey, um, I was probably more defensive minded in the first place. You know, the offense kind of started to come when I came out to BC and I was watching Pavel Bure lots on TV and wanting to get faster and quicker. But I think at the heart of my game it was not getting scored on and being hard to play against and taking guys' time and space away and being defensive first. If I could go back and do my career over again, which I kind of joke around sometimes. You look at some of these skill coaches, it's you know I see the way Makar moves along the blue line and Quinn Hughes and the things that they do. You know it would have been fun to watch those guys and try to take those things into your game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting to watch the, the evolution of it. Hey, what some of these guys are doing now and and, uh, and yeah, it's funny, like my boys will be like, oh, the game was so different. And or like, or the players are better. I mean, yes, the players are are better, but it's just because there's been an evolution to it, right, like you could take mary lemieux or yourself and and and like, give them the same resources and the same ability to see what's going on. And like you could been walking the blue line, I'm sure, like kyle mccarr does right now. He just it wasn't really open as an option at that point, you know yeah, I mean even the uh, the open mohawk.
Speaker 1:Like just seeing players do that, like I never did that once in my entire career opening, opening my hips up like that I thought it looked dumb. You know, like I was like why would you want to do that, you know. But it's like it makes sense right when you're, when you know how to do it and you've seen how important it is to be able to do that now yeah, yeah, that's funny, uh, and so now, yeah, so so your your own, your own evolution there.
Speaker 2:You said you got on the pp. Was that where the breakthrough was like as far as from the, the recognition from the league you know as a, as a world-class defenseman? Like the year you popped up to 69 points and and won, and one year I think that was a year you won your norris, right, or the first norris, yeah, oh, nine, ten, uh, was that kind of when it all came together.
Speaker 1:I think so the one year I was named to an All-Star game and I think that might have been when I was 23 or 24. I can't really remember. I should know that. And that was, you know, I felt at that point I didn't think I'm like I'm not an All-Star, like I'm not even really on the power play yet. You know, I felt at that point I didn't think I'm like I'm not an all star, like I'm not even really on the power play yet, you know.
Speaker 1:But our team in Chicago wasn't great, but I certainly was. You know, that was a bit of a confidence boost too, and you know, I think you're right, though, when it's not until you you're on that top power play unit and also, I think, having team success. You know, it's like once you have success as a group and as a team, then you get that individual recognition a little bit more and and rightfully so, I think, in a lot of ways. So the team started to perform and we started to get more players and, you know, you're in those important games more and more, and it just kind of grew from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a special time and I know you've probably done a bazillion interviews about it. Just, you know, patrick Kane and Taves and yourself and Hossa and like the you know a bunch of you kind of almost seem like growing up together. I mean, by the time you won the cup, I mean Kane was 20, you're 26. So you've been into your career for a little bit, but what was it? What was it like seeing these pieces get added and kind of knowing that you might've had something special there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, uh, it was fun. It was a fun time. I, you know, keep in contact, obviously, with lots of those guys and, um, yeah, you know, when you're all young and, like you said, 20 to 26, and I was an older guy I felt like on the team, you know, most of the guys were 24, 23 and and you know we'd all go out as a team after the game and it felt like juniors, but we're in the nhl and and, uh, you know we'd all go out as a team after the game and it felt like juniors, but we're in the NHL. And you know, I remember, just even after practice, you know, guys would be having lunch or whatever, sitting around and hanging out in the lounge and it would be like two hours, two and a half, three hours after practice and the lounge was still full. So guys really got along um well and and and we were, you know, uh, it was a fun group to be a part of and, yeah, definitely, uh, great memories did you see that change, the social aspect of it?
Speaker 2:uh, like the players I work with now you mean I I'm I've been out of the game forever as a player but like there was still a lot of community, right, there was a lot of you know going out for as a player, but like there was still a lot of community, right, there was a lot of you know going out for the long lunch, you know like there was definitely some beers involved. You know like we there there was that type of crumb camaraderie. It sounds like that that's sort of been removed and it makes sense in a lot of ways just with social media and phones and everything else, right, that that that guys are, you know, subjected to. But yeah, during the course of your 1,200 games, did you see a shift in how guys hung out together and bonded?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean my first couple of years there I think it was Curtis Brown was the only guy that had an iPhone. I still had a Discman and headphones and you know. So there was just a lot more conversations and card games. I know they still play cards and things like that, but you know, in general it's like after a flight you get on the bus. It's pretty quiet, where I remember times where we're just getting on the bus driving to the hotel or you know, and it's just loud and it's just know. You don't ever get that very often anymore. It's just quiet and everybody's on their phone or checking their messages and you know it's. I thought that that's what it was definitely a different time and and in a lot of ways, a lot more fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean I hate sounding like a dinosaur, but I really like I love the fricking bus, Like I loved it because, like that's, I hate sounding like a dinosaur, but I really like I love the freaking bus, like I loved it because like that's what you were doing, you were with the guys, you were. I mean, either you read right. That would be like the only thing you could kind of do by yourself is you would read Some guys would do that at the front of the bus or whatever or maybe you had like a somebody telling a joke, like whatever. Yeah and uh and god, there was there's a lot of, there's a lot of I don't know. Like that's some of the best stuff of the game. I think you know, and I really feel that some of these teams are missing that now yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:uh, it's almost like they should implement a rule and then they would see that you know the you get to know your teammates better and you, they would see that you know you get to know your teammates better and they would. You know everybody kind of. You see different sides to the person, right when you're talking and conversing with them or joking around, and everybody's involved too. It's not just one or two guys, it's you know five or you know 10 guys in a whole, like conversation and joking around or different pockets of players chatting and laughing on the bus, yeah, and the plane too, and it's just, yeah, it's just different now, and it is. I agree, I don't want to sound like a dinosaur either, but it's just. It's too bad that you know that technology has kind of transformed it a bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of keeping teams apart. I think I think there's some good stuff that they could do there. Some coaches have, like done a no phone policy on buses or some some scenarios. I think that's an interesting thing to explore as a coach if you get the team involved in it, right. I think if you ask the team, hey, like this could be an alternative to what you're doing right now, maybe it's better. Are you willing to try? You know, instead of like forcing it down their throats, like maybe there's some, maybe there's some buy-in there, but uh, but yeah, anyways, I love the bus trips, I love the plane rides, you know. I mean I love the after practice time, you know, being with the guys that was, that was some of the best stuff of the game and and being a pro well, even being a junior, tons of fun.
Speaker 2:Take a short break from the podcast to talk about the UMH 68 and the sponsorship title, sponsorship position that is available right now for the UMH 68. Again, who is going to be the people that you touch by being a sponsor? That is, the top level players in their province, at their age group. So and there's 68 of them them. So we're doing this in five different events this year. So this is over 300 of let's use the word elite players in their province. They are the influencers of their age group. They are the people that other kids want to be like, want to play like, want to be on their teams with, and definitely the type of player that you want your product in or around. So a huge opportunity here to get involved with the UMH 68 in its growing, expanding state. We plan to do almost double the events next year. We want to bring on a girls division as well as offering the two age groups the minor uh, minor uh, bantam and major peewee age groups in each province. So, yes, this, the umh 68, is going nowhere, but up and uh.
Speaker 2:Now is the time to take on a title sponsorship role. I am having conversations, outside of this podcast, of course, with uh, with interested people, but if this speaks to you, if you are an owner of a company, if you are involved in a, you know whatever it doesn't have to be a hockey product, but if it is a hockey product, great, and want to be involved in amateur sport and support a really, really great experience in the UMH 68 Invitational that grows people as well as the player and brings people together for education and development purposes, then this might be something that speaks to you. And again, you can reach out to me at jasonupmyhockeycom or you can leave a contact message on the website or on any social media channel. Jason Padolan as well at IG or at the UMH 68. That is also on ig. So lots of ways to reach out. But would love to collaborate with like-minded uh brands and corporations that want to get involved of a of a pretty cool expanding brand.
Speaker 2:All right, let's get back to the discussion with duncan keith from a leadership standpoint. I've heard a ton of stories about Taves. I know that you were a leader in your own right too. That topic's come up on my podcast lots. I mean leadership styles, how to do it, what means good leadership, what would you say about leadership and maybe what you learned from some of the guys you played with?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I played with so many guys that were great leaders in their own way. You know, I talked about aj baines and my first captain in the minors and to me what I would always stuck with him, stuck with me about him, was just how positive he was, no matter what, you know, and it was just like everything was a positive um, and then I, and then a guy like Marty Wilford, where it was like his practice habits and you know, uh, he could, no matter what happened away from the rink or anything. It was always like when the game was on, when, when he was on the ice and he was, he was dialed in and he was performing and whether it was practice or practices or games, and so I felt like I learned a lot from from my captains that I that I played with and leaders before before me, and for me it was always, I think, everybody's different. You know there's different kinds of leadership styles and Taves was certainly a great leader.
Speaker 1:We had great leaders with that group and Seabrook and Sharp and Hossa and, you know, guys like Andrew Ladd. There was, like, you know, the guys that got a lot of the attention but other players that maybe didn't get as much attention but you know, were huge parts of our success as a group because of the way they led and the things they did. And for me it was always just, you know, competing and and trying to be a hard player to play against and be ready to go, and knowing that you know my teammates, I guess you know wanting my teammates to think of me as a guy that they'd won on their team going into battle, that you know to think of me as the guy that they'd won on their team going into battle, that you know, that knows it's going to show up for whether it's a shinny hockey game or a Stanley Cup final, and compete as hard as I can.
Speaker 1:I think part of you know leadership too is trying to include everybody in the group and making everybody feel a part of the team and, um, you know, you get. You get, especially the higher levels where lots of guys, certain guys, get a lot of the attention in terms of the media and uh, but it's a lot of times those guys that you know play five to nine minutes a night and and those guys are the life of the wrestling room and and planning, you know, parties and team dinners and doing things, and and they're just as important as the guys that are scoring, uh, 40 goals yeah, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:Uh, it reminds me of a conversation I had on this podcast with brad larson um, probably remember that name and he was a coach even this year with the assistant uh, I mean assistant coach with the calvary flames.
Speaker 2:He told a story of when he was playing for colorado and they had that really like crazy team. That was when colorado and detroit were going at each other, uh, tooth and nail. You know tons of hall of famers on his team and, and he was, he was in a minimal fourth line role, right, but he said that, like Sakic and those guys like Forsberg, like they made him feel like a hugely important piece of what was going on there. You know, like whether it was a hit that they would talk to him about or something, a back check that he had or the way he competed in practice, and he said he just learned a lot from that. You know, like being a guy who's maybe could be overlooked in some scenarios, but he felt like those guys made him feel important and valuable and and what a and that made him better. Right, like to your point, like that makes everyone better and if you're going to win a championship, everyone has to be feeling really good about themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. I think one of the things that I admired about Quenville as our coach is that, you know he, everybody has a role and it's it's like there's times where I look back on some of the teams that we had and and, uh, you know that that fourth line in in 2014 I know we didn't win that year, but we went to the conference finals and we had a really good team and that fourth line that year was they were playing their their 10 to 12 minutes a night, but they were counted on to penalty kill and close big games out in the last few minutes of the the game, when the game was on the line, and so, uh, that might have been, uh, kind of an extreme case, but like, um, you know, it's just, it is everybody and you need a team to win. If everybody feels a part of the team and feels like they have a role and some sort of worth, then you're going to be needed come playoff time if you want to win, to have that depth.
Speaker 2:You mentioned hard-to-play games quite a few times. Again, you were not a big imposing defenseman and you never had a ton of penalty minutes, but you were recognized as somebody that would go to battle. There's different ways to compete and you've mentioned that word a lot and I love that word. I think it's one of the greatest assets you can have as a hockey player. How did you define that for yourself? As far as how you were competitive and hard to play against?
Speaker 1:uh, for me, I would just say it was using my quickness to take time and space away. So, being on guys quick in their face right away, uh, intensity in a puck battle, uh, you know, obviously not being the biggest guy out there so to to be able to just throw a guy off the puck, it's, it's not really going to work. So, you know, it came down to being just simply raising the level of intensity in that battle and being quicker and more intense into that, into the, into the fight, and uh, um, I think quickness for me was was is big. But, uh, you know, um, yeah, I would just look at it as simple as taking time and space away, getting into that battle quick as you can and then and then trying to get separate the puck and then getting out of there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, I, when I'm, when I'm talking with with, I want to hear your opinion on this. So I talk about different controllables, right, when I'm talking with with, I want to hear your opinion on this. So I talk about different controllables right when I'm working with my athletes and what they, what they can control, and I, what I think are big value pieces for players. And one is effort, like the, the, the ability to work hard, and the other one is competitive spirit and and, and I classify them as different things and sometimes, you know, players have a hard time understanding the difference. But you can work hard to get into a battle, to use the story you just told, but then, once you get to that place, you use the word intensity.
Speaker 2:I think that there's a different piece of the puzzle that shows up, and that's what I call a competitive spirit. What are you willing to do in that environment? And I do think that that is a controllable. Can we elevate that and how much can you elevate that? Because you mean to yourself, you're saying that you probably want a lot of battles as an underside guy just because you were more intense in that battle. Like, do you? How do you feel about that, that differentiation? Do you see the a correlation there as far as between effort and uh and competitive spirit?
Speaker 1:yeah, I do. I mean, obviously, like you said, there is levels to you know working hard or you know going in there like your, your, your life is on the line. You know like it's life or death if you can. Somebody told you that you know you got to get this puck off of his stick. You know, and obviously I had, like I mentioned before, I had great coaching, especially with Trent, on technical ability, on how to do that, and working on my quickness. But that, yeah, the mindset that you're going to find a way, no matter what, and you know, find a way to do this and get it off there and get it done, as opposed to just kind of you know, whether you're riding a bike and you're just, you know, on a on a stationary bike, you're just kind of going through the motions or you think you're going hard, but there's just kind of other levels to pushing yourself. So, um, yeah, I like that term competitive, what was it? Competitive spirit?
Speaker 2:competitive spirit. I say yeah, and and I mean it means intensity, like I like you just saying, boiling it down to that, like how how can you raise your intensity in those moments to you know, to give yourself the advantage to to win? Because it is a battle of attrition a lot and which is one of the reasons I love hockey in our sport right Is that there's different ways to be successful. It's not just about the guy with the most skill is going to win, right, it's, there's these other things that get involved in it, and tenacity and will and drive and intensity are such huge factors and, and I think in an era right now where the skill is so high that I believe that a differentiator for those players can be what I just said, like that's not as high. I don't think you know.
Speaker 1:I mean in some aspects the second and third and fourth efforts. You know, and, um, you know, just like off of a face off, right, it's sometimes it's not that that first swipe, uh, where you're going to win the face-offs. A lot of times it's that second and third effort to win that face off and I was never a centerman, but you know, that's something that I talked to our centerman on is is, you know, staying in that in that little battle until you finally won that puck back. It's just sticking with it that extra longer, extra two seconds longer to to try to fight to win it back.
Speaker 2:And, um, you know, I think that, uh, people notice that and you know, when it sticks out now, almost, you know, with players that have that, I gotta ask you, uh, just I just remembered so, christobal huay, we have a, we have a teammate, a former teammate of ours, uh, in connection, and so christobal, he was with you. Oh, nine, and maybe your stanley cup here, I'm not 100% sure exactly the years, but goalie for everyone listening and a really good goalie. I mean. He had a lot of success in the NHL. I think he was an all-star the one year he came to Germany, when I was there, the year of the lockout, and to this day I've honestly never seen a more competitive goalie and I played with a lot of competitive goalies and a lot of good goalies.
Speaker 2:But this guy in germany, in a lockout year as an nhler, just showed up every freaking day and did not want to get scored on right, like I know guys don't want to get scored on, but like it was a battle to get a puck past him in practice and I had the most respect for him. He was so much fun. Uh, in the locker room. Anyways, what was your was that? Was that what you remember of crystal ball in in the in the black?
Speaker 1:box environment. When you say fun, yeah, that's the first thing that I. I remember him about him as uh, you know, just such a fun teammate to be around and uh, yeah, he, uh, he was a great teammate. I haven't seen him in a long time and I, you know it'd be great to connect with him. I haven't talked to him in a while either, but he uh, um, yeah, great memories of him with him and, uh, he was definitely a competitive, competitive guy and I think he was a big part of the reason why it helped push us to end up doing what we did and push our goalie, ante Niemi, in that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they kind of split duty that year. So did Niemi take over kind of in playoffs. Is that what happened in that run?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, for whatever reason I think you know sometimes the goalie gets hot. But yeah, they definitely help one another. But the biggest thing for me when I remember Huey was just you know how, you know, I know he was competitive but he always seemed happy and having a good time with the guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he maybe speak on the competitiveness we talked about, competitive spirit of of goalies, cause that's one thing that that I as a player, as a player in practice, like sometimes goalies are standing there and they don't really give a crap, sometimes right, even some number ones have. I've had goalies that have been like that. Or you have the guy that does not want to get scored on and for me as a as a goal scorer, as a forward, like that was that really amped me up right and it got my, my level higher and I think that there's so much value for goalies that are, that are competitive. Can you, can you, speak to that? Do you share that, that, that that philosophy, with me?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's nice to see goalies like that. Um, you know, I heard stories that dominic hasik would, uh, you know, in practice never want to be scored on and never want to even have a puck just sitting in his net. And, uh, you know, that's one of the things I remember about crawford. Uh, it was just like he was whenever we were practicing. He was always like treating it like it was game situation and and never wanted to be scored on ever, you know. So, um, it makes it. It makes it fun and makes the players better too, because they know they're coming in and it's a, it's a little internal competition, and you know, and then you're bragging rights after practice, or you can go into the line and and give a chirp and, uh, you know, and that's next time you come down on the goalie you better score, or you know. So it makes practice fun. I think, too, it's that competitiveness and everybody pushing one another and goalies are part of that that I think sometimes gets forgotten.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, I really I think there's so much value for well, one, the position. I've always had immense amounts of respect for the position itself. Like they're, they're fricking playing a different game right, it's still called hockey, but it's completely different game that everyone else on the ice is playing. Um, so you know, they're isolated in that sense. There's such a key component of the of the team, uh and and the mental, you know the, the mental side of the game for them is second to none. So I've always respected that spot and I really have always loved goalies, that play. They definitely made me better.
Speaker 2:If you were to give any, you know I said we'd go for about an hour and here we are, we're about at that hour mark. Is this thought? Maybe we could wind her up Like 1,250 games, dude, three cups. You know how many more. You know Olympic experiences and you know how many more you know olympic experiences and you know international experiences is there? Is there one thing for you that is like your, your crown jewel, like that you're most proud of of all the things you're able to, to accomplish?
Speaker 1:um, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, when I look at some of the teams that I played on, you know, I just look at so many great teammates and so many you know relationships that were made that will be, you know, lifetime friends, and you know, certainly, the Stanley cups and the gold medals, when I look at those, those championships it was, they're just incredible experiences and it's hard for me to kind of pick one, you know.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I think, I think maybe something that I'm proud of and it's it's not necessarily, uh, like a, a championship or, you know, an individual trophy or anything like that. For me it's uh just proud of the fact that, as an undersized defenseman, that I made it through that jungle, you know, and I, you know, felt healthy and I could feel like if I, you know, really put in some training, I could still feel really good again. You know, put in some training, I could still feel really good again, you know. So it's just I'm proud of the fact that you know I was, I didn't miss a ton of games for injury and I was proud of the fact that, yeah, I never missed very many games from injury and you know the work that I put in there. So for me that's kind of something that I yeah.
Speaker 1:I look back on and knowing that you know sometimes you get some bad luck or a bad break, or you know a puck deflects off and can catch it. No doubt that I've had my fair share of injuries, but just being able to get out of the game and feel healthy and now be able to coach my son and enjoy, enjoy life yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2:yeah, well, and that's the thing, right, like, and I and I can't relate to it at all play 10 years pro but not 1250 games in the nhl. You know, like that's, you have to do something in that, in that chronology, like there's an evolution to your game, there's also an adaptation, I would assume, to your game. Right, like to play that long you fill different roles at different times. You maintain value. I would think that there must be a sense of pride in being able to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. Yeah, that's another one where you know the ability to adapt to different situations or different roles and continue to add, layer, different layers to your game and and continue to learn. I think without that, you know it's it's hard to you know to to stick around as long as I did. It was a blast. You know how fun it can be. We talked about being with the guys and just all that downtime, whether you're on the road or at home. I loved it and I loved every minute of it.
Speaker 2:I think it comes from passion, I think it comes from a love of it, the willingness to want to do it as far as a message to the listeners right now talking about that adaptability and that willingness to get better, isn't that a mindset? Isn't that a conscious choice to want to evolve and want to adapt? I think that needs to be there for it to happen.
Speaker 1:I think that's a choice for players if they want to be or not yeah, and I think that's a good point, and for sure you know, knowing that not everything goes your way.
Speaker 1:You know. You can look at some of the best players in the world. Whether it's Sidney Crosby, not, everything goes his way, whether it's a bounce or you know whatever. You know whether it's a bounce or you know whatever you know. Maybe the margin is different, but there's still times where you face adversity and it's kind of how do you react? How do you, when you get knocked down, do you get back up and do you continue to fight and fight harder, or do you? You know, like you had mentioned before, do you get demoralized? If you're, you know, like you mentioned before, do you get demoralized? If you're? You know it's that, that mindset that you're just going to continue to, to keep fighting and keep finding a way, and you can't keep a good dog down yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you brought up sydney because a lot of it, like I know my boys they don't remember when sydney was not able to play for like a season because of his concussion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly and look how he kind of bounced back. It was like everybody thought that you know, we always talk like other players were the best in the world. And it was like you know, he just kind of put his head down and you knew that he was going to. You know, I didn't, you didn't know, but obviously that's who he is. You didn't know, but obviously that's who he is. And so he kind of grit his teeth and and did what he had to do to kind of keep his career moving along in the same way where he is the best player.
Speaker 1:And then they went two cups, you know, back to back.
Speaker 2:Oh it's crazy yeah. It's crazy. Anyways, man, I really appreciate your time. Uh, awesome to have such a great hockey group here in the Okanagan Valley. We're blessed with how many ex-pros there are and high-level pros and now giving back to the game through your kids and their kids. Actually, maybe we should tell the listeners that dream team that you had there for spring hockey last year. Who was on the bench with you again?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, our soldier hockey team there we had uh siebes, uh brent seabrook, cam barker and myself coaching, so yeah, it was. Uh, it was fun. Three defensemen. So I don't know, maybe the forwards got the shaft a little bit, but oh, I think they were just fine, but yeah that's them how to play some defense too, yeah that's kind of like me for everyone listening to this.
Speaker 2:Obviously there's listeners from all over the world here, but that's sort of the hockey depth that we have here. On a local spring team for 10-year-olds, you may have some Stanley Cup champions and first-round draft picks and Norris Trophy winners behind the bench. It's pretty fun. My youngest, mike Smith he plays against in Kelowna and Byron Ritchie is on that bench right Like Wade Redd is also on that bench. So you mean how many thousands of games are on that bench here locally? So yeah, it's kind of Jared Smith in the 700 game. Nhl coaches TJ, my youngest right now. So there's definitely lots of NHLers around and it's fun that everyone's giving back. So thank you for doing this again, for you giving back, because I think the conversations matter and lots to learn from your career. So thanks, duncan, for coming on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for having me, Jason. It was good seeing you last weekend there. Cool, see you on the road.
Speaker 2:Thanks. It was a fun one, as usual was was easy to get a hold of super humble, down to earth for a guy who as is as accomplished as he is. It's one of the things that I love about our sport is that it's very rare that you are going to run into anyone who has a big head, who is hard to deal with, who who is unapproachable and if anyone would qualify with the right to be unapproachable, it is somebody with his resume, someone that's won the amount of cups that he's won, that's been on the stages he's been in, that's won the accolades that he's had and he's nothing but that at all. Um, seems very humble, uh, seems like if he I don't know if you noticed throughout the interview, but how often he talked about teammates and how often he remembered teammates and again, a lot of the names that he mentioned weren't the stars that he played with, weren't the big names. He was talking about the guys that were in the trenches with him. You know the aj baines is of the world. That majority of you listening had probably never heard of AJ Baines before. I know who AJ Baines was because I played against him, but generally outside of the general, you know the general hockey fan wouldn't know that name. And here that is somebody that that Duncan Keith gives a shout out to and remembers you know, and and some of the other names that that didn't maybe have big NHL careers that he brought up and he kept thanking his teammates and the experience and environment of his teammates.
Speaker 2:And, and there there is the lesson I believe, like the another lesson of of that discussion with Duncan is is well, one I love the idea of the development arc of him, what he, what he came, what he became, became, his mental approach to his development and his belief in what was about to happen for him and what was going to happen for him. But also the idea that it's about more than just you right, like he was a part of a system, a part of an environment, part of a culture in Chicago there at the time that was about winning and it was about taking care of each other and it was about going to war for the guy next to you. All the things, and call them cliche or not, but they are the things that resonate with me and with hockey and the players that get it. They will go farther as individuals, they will be better as individuals, and that is something that I do believe can be taught. It's a perspective, right, you have to understand the perspective. And once you understand the perspective and that this is valuable, you can choose to celebrate teammates. You can choose to want to sacrifice for the team. You can choose to make these things a priority for you in your own dna.
Speaker 2:And, uh and yeah, duncan is a great example of what makes hockey great. You know the idea that it is about more than I. It takes 20 to win, and it really does take 20 to win, and if winning is important to you, you're gonna have to make some sacrifices along the way, no matter how damn good you are. Uh, and that was recognized also in the scott niedermeyer interview. So great lessons here the last little while. I hope you guys were able to pick up on it and I hope it starts to start some discussions in your own house and in your own cars. So, uh, thanks for being here again, thanks for listening, thanks for being a part of the up my hockey, uh, up my hockey world, and until next time. You know what to do. You play hard and you keep your head up.