Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
EP.140 - Brandon Convery: Navigating the Highs and Lows of a Professional Hockey Career
Brandon Convery, once an NHL hopeful drafted eighth overall by the Toronto Maple Leafs, opens up about the rollercoaster ride from being a minor hockey prodigy to navigating the challenges of professional sports. Our conversation sheds light on the emotional highs and lows of draft year expectations, the vital role of a strong support system, and the mental grit required to excel amidst competitive dynamics. Brandon's insights are not only a testament to his journey but also serve as a guide for aspiring athletes to understand the intricate tapestry of patience, opportunity, and readiness that success demands.
We reminisce about the critical decisions young athletes face, such as choosing between the CHL and NCAA paths, and how these choices can set the course for their futures. Brandon shares personal stories of early setbacks, like injuries during pivotal moments, and how these experiences shaped his resilience. The conversation also highlights the importance of mentorship, trust in coaching, and cultivating a positive team culture that can make or break a player's career. Through Brandon's anecdotes, listeners get a behind-the-scenes look at the interplay of personal development and team dynamics.
From personal reflections on unfulfilled potential to valuable lessons learned outside the rink, this episode is a heartfelt exploration of the complexities of a hockey career. Brandon's post-hockey transition into mentoring the next generation illustrates how past experiences can transform into teaching moments. Whether you're an athlete, a fan, or someone intrigued by the nuanced world of sports, this episode offers a thoughtful perspective on what it truly takes to thrive in the pressure-cooker environment of professional hockey.
Once you get drafted. As you know, there's a lot of great players. I mean, in Toronto, you know, gilmore was there, matt Sundin was there, there was a lot of, you know, pretty good players that were in my position at center that did things that I did as good as I did or better. You know what I mean, and so it's not always on your time and that's what you have to realize. It's not always on your time and that's what you have to realize. It's just relaxing. Keep working, stay positive, stay with it, and your time will come when it presents itself, or you have to be ready when it comes.
Speaker 2:That was former eighth overall pick in the 1992 NHL draft to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Brandon Convery and you are listening to episode 140 of the Up my Hockey podcast with Jason Padola. Welcome to Up my Hockey with Jason Padola, where we deconstruct the NHL journey, discuss what it takes to make it and have a few laughs along the way. I'm your host, jason Padolan, a 31st overall draft pick who played 41 NHL games but thought he was destined for 1,000. Learn from my story and those of my guests. This is a hockey podcast about reaching your potential. This is a hockey podcast about reaching your potential. Hello there, welcome back, or welcome to the Up my Hockey podcast with Jason Padolan. I am your host, jason Padolan, here for episode 140, and today we're going to be speaking with Brandon Convery. He's a former teammate of mine in St John's, newfoundland, and also with Toronto, with the big club and with the Maple Leafs. We played together for about a season and a half and Brandon's story is awesome. It's been a long time since I've wanted to have him on, and by awesome I mean he's just the perfect guest for my program.
Speaker 2:With what we discuss here player development and the path for every player is different. The recipe card for every player is different. The challenges that we face and the circumstances that are put in front of us are all unique and sometimes they are surprising. And for Brandon, he was a star from the get-go, was a star through minor hockey, was a star in the WHL I mean, sorry, ohl and was an eighth overall draft pick and was one of the three players considered for the first overall spot by the Tampa Bay Lightning that year. He was flown in with two other players for an entire week to be evaluated. He ended up going eighth to Toronto and, at the end of the day, brandon ended up playing 70-some games, I believe, in the NHL. What was it? 72. 72 games for three different teams. He played for the Maple Leafs, he played for the Canucks and he played for the Los Angeles Kings. And the question is and we talk about it is like why? So what happened? Why was he unable to make a career, an NHL career, out of his hockey? And that's the million-dollar question, right? That's the answer we're looking for when we're trying to help our players get to where they want to go, and we want to help them be the best that they can be and set them up for the most success possible.
Speaker 2:There is things that happen, sometimes within our control and sometimes without our control. And for Brandon one, we got along real well. He was my centerman for the most of the time that he was there and, uh, and whatever, we shared the same like, like, sense of humor. Uh, we really liked ripping on each other and there was always, you know, there was always that humor in the in the locker room and we were colleagues in the sense I mean, everyone in the minors is wanting to get to the NHL, but we were two of the top prospects with the Maple Leafs at the time and we shared, I guess, equally in the frustration of maybe not being where we wanted to go. And, with that being said, there is an impatience around that and there can also end up being a cynicism. And with Brandon, he talks about in this interview how he wished he could go back and how he wished he could change some things, just with his patience right, and with his level of acceptance of where he was and not being in a rush to be where he thought that he should be. That is much easier said than done.
Speaker 2:Brandon also went on after his career was over. He went to have a successful career in the Swiss League after he left North America, won a championship there, but he was so compelled by his own journey that he wanted to help athletes very similar to what I'm doing now. He had a stable of individual that he wanted to help athletes very similar to what I'm doing now. He had a. He had a stable of individual athletes that he would help, uh, when it comes to mindset and personal development and uh, and he would also coach some of his own teams there in California and uh, he has now gotten away from that and he and he's into uh, insurance, uh, you know, in the business world. But he was, he was obviously compelled and he was pushed forward in the sense of like this is an issue, like the support available for players is an issue, it needs to be talked about and there needs to be a third party that's that's available for athletes to help them through whatever adversity or challenges that might exist.
Speaker 2:And so Brandon and I and we didn't beat up on the on the Toronto Maple Leafs here at all, obviously it would probably sound like sour grapes anyways Uh, but the, the communication in Toronto at the time and the player development in Toronto at the time, what was not necessarily very good. I mean, I can say that honestly uh, neither Brandon nor I really knew what we were supposed to be trying to do. You know what, where we needed to develop, there wasn't much communication. When we brought it got brought up about how, what we were supposed to do as a role or what we were supposed to, how we were supposed to play, and, and with that lack of communication, you know, there there was these unanswered questions which which leads to, you know, uncertainty, which leads toecision and which leads to kind of lack of enjoyment for lack of a better word with the game and not really knowing where you stand within the organization.
Speaker 2:And so Brandon talks about his desire to want to be an NHLer and doing all the right things really in the minors to warrant that opportunity. And even his stat line with the NHL as a young guy was pretty darn good. I mean, his first taste of action in the NHL was in 95-96. He got called up from St John's where he was almost a point a game in St John's, and he got called up. He had 11 games, he had 5 goals and 2 assists. You do the math on that, that's going to be close to a 30-40 goal season if he played the full season there. So obviously shows signs that he was able to play.
Speaker 2:And then the next year, when he got brought up again was the one that we talk about he ended up having two goals, eight assists. It sounds like an unlimited role. Sounds like he was a fourth line role that year and was struggling potentially with ice time and with line mates and to be the player that he wanted to be or maybe thought that he could be. He ended up getting moved to Vancouver, vancouver. There with Keenan he started off the year, looked like, was doing great. He thought he didn't really know what he did wrong. He had nine points in 12 games and then was let go and put on waivers and picked up by Los Angeles and it never really panned out there.
Speaker 2:So you know what was the problem, or was there a problem, and for Brandon it sounds like it was just. You know, misunderstood was a word that he used. You know that he cared so much that sometimes he got in his own way. His impatience was something that got in his own way and just really overthinking the game and kind of trying too hard to get to where he wanted to go and it was just a mental battle the entire time. So I really enjoy Brandon Convery. Too hard to get to where he wanted to go and it was just a mental battle the entire time.
Speaker 2:So I really enjoy Brandon Convery. I've always enjoyed him. He's a ton of fun, he's a smart, smart cat and he gets it. And I do find that sometimes the more intelligent a player can be obviously this is a broad brush statement, but they can like the overthinkers. Sometimes the high IQ and I mean this in like an intelligent standpoint, not a high hockey IQ, but a high IQ person in the sports world can end up being an overthinker and the overthinking is something that gets themselves in trouble and we do talk about that a little bit and I do believe Brandon fell in that category and sometimes those players like Brandon who have the most success with someone like me or with some type of support in that aspect to support the mental side of the game, away from the game, not necessarily having a problem putting it together on the ice, but having a problem putting it together off the ice. When it comes to the uncertainties, you know, the things that aren't in your control the overthinking of some of these mechanisms that are in place. So, yeah, this was a long time coming, this interview.
Speaker 2:There is some echo in Brandon's office. I gave him hell for it before we started, so you're going to have to deal with a little bit. I don't think it's unbearable at all, but it's just not clean audio because he was in an office without anything on the walls and it sounded a little bit echoey in his headphones. So my apologies for that, but I do think it's worth your while to take a listen, because even if the dominoes are lining up for you right now and your player whether it is in minor hockey or if it is in junior hockey, geez, just because something hasn't reared its head when it comes to challenges or adversity or some area where you need to show some resilience, it will be coming.
Speaker 2:And Brandon talks a lot about building your support team, keeping a tight inner circle, but having the support cast there which he felt that he never really had. Those are important and we want to build the person behind the hockey player. So when stuff does happen, we are now prepared to deal with it. We feel that we've already established a safe relationship and a comfortable relationship with somebody, instead of which I find a lot of people wait for, like, the bottom of the barrel moment, and then only then will they now seek some type of support. And that's not the best way to do it, because, geez, we don't want to get to the bottom of the barrel in the first place. And that's not the best way to do it because, geez, we don't want to get to the bottom of the barrel in the first place. And then, when you're trying to establish a relationship in that scenario, it's not awesome. So, yeah, I mean to do your best work as a hockey player, do your best work as a parent. I think you should establish some type of connection early, even when things are going good. That is really the best way to do it, and establishing the relationship when things are going good are going to help the player be even better, find more within themselves, to become a better player. And then also, when things don't go their way, there's already strategies, processes, tools in place, along with the support mechanism to make it much more manageable.
Speaker 2:So, without further ado, I will bring you my conversation with Brandon Convery, a heck of a player in his own right, somebody that bears the label as being a draft bust with Toronto. Welcome to the club for Brandon, as they didn't do a good job of developing any of their picks, so either their scouting staff was terrible or their development staff wasn't great, but either way, I think it's an unfair scenario, because this guy was a heck of a hockey player, put up lots of numbers all over the place and, uh, and there's lots to be learned from his lesson. Uh, so here is episode 140 with brandon converee. All right, well, holy crap, this has been a long time coming Four years maybe, maybe more, to get this man. My former sentiment on the podcast. But welcome to the Up my Hockey podcast, brandon Convery.
Speaker 1:Thank you, it's a privilege. I've been wanting to get on your show for a long time, but it's a tough one to nail down.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I was going to say you sure don't act like it's a privilege Gee Hunting you down. You'd think you're the prime minister or something.
Speaker 1:No, it's good to speak with you. Obviously, we haven't talked much over the years, but when we do, it's like we have just yesterday. But obviously you're doing some positive things in the world, which is great to see.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, I wanted you, I mean for multiple reasons. One is that you are a hell of a player. Obviously, this show is about trying to be a player, you know, and trying to be the best that we can be. Your story is not too far off of my story, uh so, and we had the same team in common. So I mean, I think there's a lot of yeah, there's some commonality there that I think is is worth getting into. And then also you got into kind of what I'm doing there for a little bit as well and uh, so, yeah, I just think that we can probably shoot the shit and have, uh, have the shit and have a pretty good time doing it, catching up. So I don't know where to. I really don't know the best place to start with it, other than maybe that entry into junior. Like, I want to start just with a little bit of your career and seeing how that was for you and all the rest of it. Was the OHL always where you wanted to go?
Speaker 1:and all the rest of it was was the OHL always where you wanted to go? Yeah, I think at the time when, um, you know, we were coming up the NCAA wasn't, you know, obviously I would say probably the quickest version was going to the OHL, the fastest route to Crow, and that was my focus at the time. I think, you know, my brother at the time had a scholarship offered at ohio state. Um, he was a couple years older, but you know, it's just, I was on a fast track and that's what I wanted to do is to get to the pros as quick as possible and that was the best route at that time right and coming out of, uh on, excuse me, ontario, was there a team that you wanted like to play for, or did it really matter?
Speaker 1:no, I mean, I actually I wanted to play for my hometown and there was an opportunity to be selected and it just didn't work out and thankfully I did get selected to the sudbury wolves, which was a a great experience and, uh, one that I'm glad that you know. It worked out that way. You know, playing in northern Ontario is a great atmosphere. We had some great teams there, I think the first two years, I think we were rated number one, you know, in the Canadian Hockey League at the start of the year. We had some good teams, great players and teammates, so it was a great time, did you?
Speaker 2:the OHL draft existed, then yeah, yeah, where did you go?
Speaker 1:on that. I dropped to the third round and as an underage. So I played four years. I think at that time you had to go in the top three rounds, right, or you weren't allowed to go as an underage. Okay, I think there was a little bit discrepancy whether or not I was going to go the NCAA route. So teams, I think, were a little bit hesitant, but it all worked out Right right right.
Speaker 2:What do you mean by an underage in that scenario?
Speaker 1:Well, your regular draft year wasn't until a year later. So I think in the WHO right you have a 15-year-old protection draft. You're not, and most of them they don't play due later.
Speaker 2:That's actually yeah, well, yeah, no, you can't play. So Landon DuPont was the first guy ever that got that exceptional. No, I think a second, because Bedard did it too, but you know, they got drafted as a 15-year-old. Yeah, I guess you're right. And then now he's playing as a 15-year-old. Everyone else has to wait that one year to their 16th.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think it was similar to that. You know you had to be selected in the first three rounds.
Speaker 1:So but yeah, yeah, it was like I said, no regrets at all with that right, but then you played as the 16 year old yep, not as a 15 year old, no right so that was when you had the 26 goals and 56 games in sudbury, in sudbury as a 16, I think, yeah, my first year, yeah, yeah, yeah, it kind of you know, when I first got there, like I say, we had, we had a great roster. So I remember when I first got there I think I was a scratch, maybe the first couple of games the coach told me hey, go upstairs and watch, and I was like wait a minute, and here we go. But it's just kind of once I got in, I got one goal and it's just my confidence just grew and I kind of took off from there. Right, yeah, my confidence just grew and I kind of took off from there, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little while, okay. So that's actually a cool place to start, because there's a couple guys that I'm dealing with right now just in my own stable that are going through some of that. You step into this league, right? The OHL guys I'm working with here the WHL, ajhl, whatever it is You've been a good player somewhere else, of course, right To step in as a 16-year-old, as a young player, never have you experienced not being in the lineup or being healthy and being told that you're not good enough to be in the lineup. However, they want to pose that to you. That's a pretty big slap in the face for a lot of players, and how to deal with that.
Speaker 1:How was that for you and how did the coach deal with it back, you know, 30 years ago yeah, I mean 30 years ago there wasn't much, you know. It's like, basically, here's what the deal is go upstairs and watch. There wasn't any kind of coddling or anything like that. So, um, you know, I was just excited to be there. I didn't really get caught up in, I didn't feel I was, you know, could jump right in and be that top player like I always thought, and so maybe it didn't affect me that much at the start.
Speaker 1:And so it was a positive transition going from maybe going in and out of the lineup to being in consistently, and I just took advantage of that opportunity. And you know, maybe it was luck or anything, but I got a couple goals early on and it just progressed from there. But so it can be, uh, you know. But you know, when I fast forward and look at other opportunities down the road, maybe four years later I didn't handle it as well. So it's kind of it was kind of. It was kind of. Uh, you know, looking back, I wish I kind of was like it was at 16 years old, when I was 20, uh, when I approached the game and maybe been a little bit patient and just relaxed a bit and uh, watch, learn and stick with it that junior experience for a lot of guys.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, obviously you and I both know a lot of guys don't, I mean, you play at junior. That's a pretty good accomplishment. You know a lot of guys want to and and try to do it and a lot of guys can't and that's sometimes as far as could be the end of the road. But that is a big transition, like at a really really formative time, right like um, you know you're moving away from home, you're with billets, you're You're playing with 20-year-olds, 21-year-olds. You know, like there's a lot of stuff happening socially, you're changing schools, like I don't know. Just drop back into that spot, like, is that something you know? Are you surprised that you were able to handle it? Would you let your son or daughter do something like that now, if that is?
Speaker 1:No, I mean, I have an 18 year old, a 16 year old, 11 year old right now and I every time I say to my wife, can you believe where? You know we were at this age? And I try to relate to that and to think that what my parents were going through when I left to go of guys there you know, mike Peckett, glenn Murray, jamie Matthews we had a great team there with some great leaders, and I think that's what you know helped the transition is that we were all in it, all in it together and we kind of grew up together for two or three years until we all went on our own way.
Speaker 2:Right. What do you say about the? What's your opinion on that playtime scenario? So I mean, that's another one that I get asked a lot, meaning you know I can potentially play on X team, right, as a younger player, maybe not getting the minutes that I want, maybe in and out of the lineup, but I'm in this environment. That's better. You know practice is better. Or do I take a step back and maybe be a bigger role on a different team? I know it's tough to do that one with one brush, but like what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:on that in general.
Speaker 1:I think it's a fine line right. You got to be careful who you're associating yourself with and the environment that you're in, but also, I think there's two parts to it. I think that you have to be mentally strong enough to be able to handle what's coming, and I think that's the most important thing, and probably what you're you're trying to help um, you know your colleagues and things like that is having the patience to stick with it. If it's not right now, you know doing the things that you need to be doing in order to take advantage of that opportunity when it presents itself.
Speaker 1:I think that's the biggest thing, when I look back, is that you have to be ready, and too many times I think that we're where I was anyway at a higher level was focusing on you, thinking ahead way too much, and you know, I think, that if you only can control what you can, it's not easy, though, and it's not easy to go play, maybe, on a team that's less talented. You don't win as much, but you play more, so there's a fine line between that, but ultimately it comes back to you. Know I put the responsibility on you. Know myself, as a player, like you know, you got to be willing to do things maybe you're not used to or willing to do in order to get where you want to get to.
Speaker 2:And um, you know, we've all been through that when you say that word mindset and like knowing that you're ready, because it's interesting, because that it is something that breaks some players and it's and it's not necessarily like their own fault and some players end up like persevering through like the really hard times and it turns out to be that best thing for them, right, like being somewhere that was hard. How would you gauge the idea of either preparing a young athlete or knowing if they are prepared? When it comes to the the that mindset side, it's a good question.
Speaker 1:I mean it's, it's a tough one. I just think you have to really monitor kids on how they carry themselves and how they go about doing their day-to-day things. And you know, obviously, listen, I felt I handled it better at 16 than I did at 21. And you know, again it gets back to is is you know who you're surrounding yourself with? Having a great support team, um, and remembering what got you there.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think a lot of times when you start getting overwhelmed and things like that, you got to get back to the simple things and things that you do well and maybe take a step back in a breath of fresh air and say, hey, I'm good, let's stick with it and keep moving forward in a positive way, as opposed to I was just full force, you know, wanted to be, you know, the top, the best in the best league. You know, right away, it's just, I think I think I needed someone to tell me hey, slow down, brandon, you know you're, you're okay. Just keep getting better, week by week, month by month, and you'll be in that place soon enough.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, easy message to relay, if anyone is even going to relay it. One. And the second one is yeah, do you absorb that and digest it and believe it? You know, like, I think there's there's two problems with that, although I agree with them. Right, like, one is the message, and two, do you want to receive it? Um, because we're always in a rush, right, I mean, I think. Right, I mean, we believe we're good players, we're ready to go, let's go. Right, like, what are we waiting for? Um, but when it comes to that, like 16 to 21,. You've said that a few times now, you know, 16 stepped into the OHL. It's obviously a big step, maybe, maybe a few less expectations, I think might be a word that could use there, right, so then you deem less personal pressure, you go through these.
Speaker 2:You know your next season was your draft year 40, almost had a goal, a game. You know you end up going eighth overall. Uh, to the toronto maple leafs, like crazy. I'm sure that must have been bonkers. Um, yeah, what was that? I guess, what was that year like? And what was that experience like with? Well, maybe just the year? Like did you did with the draft some? Some people say, oh, I was oblivious to it. Some people I mean some people are really tied into it, like what was that like for you from the get-go?
Speaker 1:I mean I wanted to be the number one pick right from five years old. That was my goal and so you know I was on track for that. I think if you look at my stats in that year, I think I only played 44 games and I believe if I had played, you know, the full regular season, I think they Tampa Bay, had the first pick overall. They brought three of us in and interviewed us for the whole week, and so I was right there for that. But I was, I was content and excited to go to the Toronto Maple Leafs I mean, you know, growing up two hours down the road. It was a huge honor, you know, and one that you know.
Speaker 1:There were some exciting times and obviously some not so exciting times where I wish I had handled things differently, but no regrets on that. That year, my draft year, was exciting. There was a lot of things that went on I think under 17 was the year before, under 18 was that year so there was a lot of things that I didn't really get caught up in. The draft per se. It was just an exciting time and, um, you know, and there was a lot of good players that I was playing with, like Mike Pecka and myself. We were line mates my first two years, and so there's some great players. We had fun and we did well all together and, uh, like I said, the draft was just a result of how well we did throughout those couple years before the draft right you, uh.
Speaker 2:So your things were rolling. Obviously too, you mean. So your draft, your things were rolling. Obviously too, I mean. So your draft, your things were rolling when you were in the lineup. Was there some injury there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had a hip problem back then when I was younger and so I missed a few games that year, unfortunately. But you know, that year might have been, you know, almost a goal a game. I don't know how much more I could have done. It was a positive year, a fun one. Broke my ankle, got two handed in the playoffs against Oshawa, broke my ankle. I thought we had a good chance of maybe winning the Memorial Cup and taking a good run at it and ironically, you know, before the draft they have, you know they bring all the prospects in and we all do the. What do you call it the?
Speaker 1:you know the testing and everything I literally had my cast taken off two days before the testing, hadn't ridden a bike, haven't done anything. You know we had to go in and do the VO2 testing and the wind gate and all that. I failed that completely. Uh, but uh, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:It was quite the experience I fail for everyone listening who hasn't done the vo2 test. You can't technically fail it. You're going to get a number, but it might not have been a very high number no, I don't think mine was that high.
Speaker 2:Oh shoot, that's funny. So anyways, I'm going to go just a little diversion, because I just brought up your team from that year, your draft year. And yeah, glenn Murray, derek Armstrong like NHLers, michael Peck, you know yourself. But then interesting, interesting, jamie Matthews, who led your team in scoring 95 points in 64 games, never played a game of pro hockey in his life. That's an interesting story too. What was the story with him?
Speaker 1:When I got drafted there the year before, I was told to go watch him. When he came to Kingston when I was 15. They were talking about this kid was the next Wayne Gretzky. He was a very intelligent player, player, funny guy from Nova Scotia, great friends with Glenn Murray, but uh, it just never panned out. I think he got selected, maybe to Chicago, but it just it never went anywhere and it's kind of how do you pinpoint why certain players have worked out and certain players that didn't? But he was a great player that's wild.
Speaker 2:I know it's so crazy when you see these great players and you don't see anything, anything about it. I'm not really sure why. No, um, so you, I love that mindset though. So you said, like you directly said, from the time I was five years old, I wanted to be the first overall pick and I, you know now that you say that, I think that I mean I could probably relate to that too. Uh, so when you, when you're living that and now you're in that, you know I mean you're in the right league to make that happen, you're on the right team to make that happen, you're playing, uh, the type of game that is like you're, you're essentially it's coming true right, like it's a reality that this, that this is something. Where does something like that in your opinion? Like where does that come from, as far as even that type of belief system to have that it's so early?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I I think I have to put this back to my dad, who had a heavy influence on myself played hockey, um, you know, uh, you know, every day, every week, it was hockey, we watched it, we played it and it was just ingrained and we were around it. The environment my brother was two years older. He was a goalie, but it was just an environment that we were around growing up and you know, obviously I gravitated towards it and was hungry to play the game all the time and wanted to be the best at every level and I think that's what drove me to have a lot of success. You know, early on through, you know to 18. And then, obviously, you know a couple things I would change once I got to 18. I think that that was maybe one of the things that if I could do over was.
Speaker 1:You know, once I got drafted, I thought, okay, I did it, but it's, you have to reinvent yourself and maybe I stopped doing things that I I did up until that point, from a mental standpoint, I was very goal oriented. I used to write on a board before every game how many goals and assists I thought I would get and then after I would fill in what I did, and so, and ironically, I would either achieve exactly or even more than what I thought I would get. And so when I look at, you know a lot of the top sports psychologists or people you know talk about. You know, you know mental training. I was doing this at seven, eight, nine years old without anyone telling me to do it, and so you know, obviously, I'm sure, clients that you work with, you know goal setting and you know stuff like that's important. But uh, I think maybe my one downfall that I regret is that I stopped focusing on that once I did get drafted, which I do regret.
Speaker 2:And stop focusing on what exactly Like your output.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, the goals I mean. Now, once you get drafted, it's like, okay, I'm here now, now what's next? And so you know, I think there was a lot that comes with. You know, being in that environment, as you're aware, I think it's important to keep setting goals every year and trying to attain certain goals, like you, keep your actions and everything in line with it and keeping yourself accountable. I wish I continued to do that, like I used to prior to getting drafted.
Speaker 2:Right, so was that a little bit of um? You never came across as complacent to me at all um or or not working, but do you think that was kind of like? Is that what it was Like? You stopped working a little bit as hard too then after that no, no, I, the work side of it, never.
Speaker 1:No, I, I always wanted to be first. Um, you know that never stopped. I just think, like you need to have specific things that you're focusing on mentally, like you're holding yourself accountable to and working towards, and what that is at that level, I I don't know, but you know, you know being patient and working towards those without getting frustrated, without getting overwhelmed. I think you know, because I was a fast track and wanted to get in and wanted to be there Once you get drafted, as you know, there's a lot of great players, and I mean in Toronto you know Gilmore was there, matt Sundin was there, there was a lot of you know Gilmore was there and that's on.
Speaker 1:Dean was there. There was a lot of, you know pretty good players that were in my position at center that did things that I did as good as I did or better. You know what I mean. And so it's not always on your time and that's what you have to realize. It's just relaxing, keep working, stay positive, stay with it and your time will come when it presents itself or you have to be ready when it comes right, yeah, two great points which is not easy yeah, no, it's not easy.
Speaker 2:A lot of it's not easy. Um, you can see that in Um, you can see that in in different players. The environment, of course, like, really matters a lot. Uh, as far as what ecosystem are you getting put into right? Who is above you right what? How's the team doing all that stuff? Like, a lot of times, even these guys did a somebody pan out or did they do great or did they not, or there's a surprise right. Well, holy smokes, a lot of it has to do with that, you know. Just in and of itself, uh, the thing I found interesting with the toronto mapleys was they had they did have these good players, but they didn't have good teams and so they weren't doing well. Uh, you would think that they would be in an environment where they'd be bringing younger players in to play a more prominent role, yet that was really never the case there the whole time, because they were always either trying to hang on to whatever you know or believing what they had. So I think that didn't help you or I in that environment very much.
Speaker 2:Just going to take a short break from the conversation with Brandon Convery to give a huge thank you to the PowerTech podcast with Andy Paquette, who had me on a couple weeks ago as a guest my stuff online, some of my stuff in the Instagram feed and said that he really respected what I was doing and wanted to have a discussion about it and to be able to talk about the mindset, programs and development that I offer to players. So I said yes to that. Andy seemed like a good guy. We had a good conversation prior to the podcast and then we had a really good conversation and, without knowing, obviously, all the different podcasts out there, it was quite compelling to me to see the feedback from that episode. Powertalk seems like they have a reach that is a little different than mine. Mine seems to be mostly Western, canadian, western US based, whereas PowerTech they're out of Ontario and there's quite a few people that listen from that area and all around North America. So great reach with the podcast. It exposed me to a lot of new listeners and maybe some of you listeners are here now listening to the Up my Hockey podcast because of that interview there and a lot of new interest in just in the programs, not only from the individual aspect A lot of parents and players have been reaching out but also from a team aspect. So definitely want to thank Andy and the PowerTech team there for having me on.
Speaker 2:It's awesome to be able to reach more people, to be able to help more players, which is what I love doing. Having players have a better experience with the game of hockey, to be able to put their best foot forward, to step in closer to their personal potential, is super exciting for me and, yeah, the conversations that I've been having in the last two, three weeks have been numerous but have been welcomed. So thank you very much to the PowerTech team and if you are somebody who has not listened to the PowerTech podcast, go check them out, go give them a ring If you're a listener of mine. It sounds like there is a lot of similarities, kind of in the discussions that they have over there on PowerTech and want to support the player as well in their advancement through minor hockey and into junior and beyond. So thank you Andy, thank you PowerTech team and thank you for all those who have reached out.
Speaker 2:And if you are somebody that is interested and has been a listener and has not reached out with regards to your player and how I can help, or with the team that you're with and how I can help. Please do. Let's get it going. Let's support your player to be the best that they can be and or your team, which is a really great aspect to get into team development and culture development. When the whole team understands the language and understands the tools, it can really be a galvanizing thing that allows the whole team to go through higher heights and more wins and better experience, and you name it. So, yes, looking forward to those of you reaching out, and let's get back to the conversation with Brandon Comrie. How was that first year? So you do go eighth, you get drafted. What is the message, if one at all, about the plan for you within that organization?
Speaker 1:I look back at it, I don't think there was much of a plan. I think they were struggling as an organization. I think the year before they beat Detroit and went on that run and lost to Gretzky in LA, there was a little bit of excitement there. But you know, I look back, like you just mentioned, we had some. I mean we had some good players. I mean Mike Gartner was there, you know, wendell was there, but there obviously was a leadership component to that because there was good enough talent.
Speaker 1:Why wasn't you know the results, you know moving forward and I think even blending in younger players to that organization. If you look at the 80s and 90s, even into the 2000s, toronto, I don't think that they ever developed a first round pick. I mean you can pick on your hand maybe, maybe a couple, I don't know. Obviously the games changed. Where I feel it's a, it's a younger man's game now, or when we were in it, I felt like it was the 30 31 year old league with maybe a few 20, some, you know, that were on a team playing. So I think that was a little bit different. Um, but I don't know. I I know now being on winning teams and looking back on why we were successful on those teams compared to why we weren't on certain teams I played with for sure yeah, there's a big difference there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was just wondering that as far as the plan, because I know you and I are both very pro-communication and that's easier said than done too, right? I don't think there's anybody that's going to raise their hand and say I'm anti-communication. Right, people think that they do it. Some places do it better than others and some players need it more than others too is the other thing. So I think that's part of the psychology of this whole player development aspect that gets missed a lot of times. It isn't a one-size-fits-all for guys. You need to understand that Brendan Convery might need a little bit more of a game plan for him than Danny Markoff does. That's two different personalities, two different people. How do you feel about that? Because I know that you got into what I'm doing now after the fact. So I think that obviously breaks the cord with you probably what I'm saying there. If you were to be director of player development at that time and you just drafted Brandon Convery now, how would you handle that scenario?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, I think, looking back at that, even mentioned that pierre dorian was the head of player development with toronto when I got drafted. He passed away a year later and so, as everyone knows, like he, I was his guy right and so he passed away. Then someone else comes in, takes over. Maybe he was a fan of somebody else, and so I do think it's important when you know, go where you're wanted. So if you're on a younger team and you know I get a lot of times I had calls from parents and kids are like you know where should I go play? To me it's an easy answer Go where you're wanted. And you know, take advantage of it there where you want it. And, um, you know, take advantage of it there.
Speaker 1:But, uh, you know the with toronto and in the plan that just I don't know what it was and, um, you know, I, I look back. It's my own responsibility, uh, but I do think back my, my oldest son just turned 18 and I look at him right now. I'm like, I mean, he's young, he doesn't know any better and so there needs to be some guidance. And so, post hockey, I got into doing some seminars and mentoring, similar to what you're doing, because I felt it was a huge need and what was lacking in the game. It wasn't about you know, the on ice and working on your shot and skating that that's a given, but I I felt like what was missing is, you know, building that internal strength and uh knowing that you know, talent might take you to places where talent can't keep you, and I think that was very evident.
Speaker 1:Um, for myself, um, I had enough talent. I was my own worst enemy and um, you know there's things that you need to have in place and, um, I think coaches need to do a better job at. Like you said, we're not all the same and I'm not saying one needs more than the other, but from the teams that I had success on winning championships, um, the coaches you know got to know you. There was a trust level, but you knew that their intentions were the right thing. And I think a lot of times in my early age I didn't trust anyone at the pro level and I don't think that's the right way to go about it. In that environment, you have to have somebody that you can lean on and trust and, um, you know it's.
Speaker 2:It's crucial, I feel, for development yeah, that, uh, that's a little bit of a marketing pitch, like for what I do. I think that the third party, the third party aspect, that a player knows that you have their best interest at heart, period. Right, like there's no other ulterior motives. Like I want I want john smith to be the best player that he can be, end of story, right, like that's the only thing that I have on my mind and I think that that players need that.
Speaker 2:I do think that the bridge has been gapped, uh, a little bit when it comes to, like when we played and you played on a few teams, like your opinion on this, but I always felt that it was an us like the players versus them, the coaches and the management, like it never felt like we were on the same page. It always felt like that we were adversaries within the same organization. I think again, it seems like some of these guys that are getting it now and getting good results, like you know, the paul, maur, maurice's and the Cooper's and the Sullivan's like they've bridged that gap right.
Speaker 1:But if you yeah, I mean if you listen to them. I mean I don't know each of them, but I would love to play for them. Just listen to them how they go about themselves, right, they're honest. You know there's probably a two way you could talk to them about anything, but they, they're honest. You know there's probably a two-way you could talk to them about anything, but they've gained the trust of the players and so I think you know, listen, I think that that's for me when I was coaching my players, I still get calls from my players to this day.
Speaker 1:This was 10, 15 years ago and we had great teams because the kids knew I did things how I wish I was treated and we had a lot of success. Was I hard and expected a lot? Absolutely, but I look at those guys, like you know, like you mentioned, they're prime examples. Players want to play for them, they trust them and they have a lot of success, but not just one year. They're consistent and you look at the teams that don't have that consistency, I think you can look and pinpoint, kind of there's a trickle-down effect from the top down why they don't have success.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, from a culture standpoint, I mean, obviously I try and look at the game from a holistic standpoint Maybe not obviously, but I do right. So there's the individual involved and it's like how do you have a collective, how do you have collective excellence and how do you develop that culture? And I think that there is, there is an approach that I think has been proven successful and I and I think it's not the challenge with it, I think and I don't know how you feel about this is that it's not that everyone can institute it, because you need a really special person in that chair to do it, because it's a, it's a skillset that not everybody has.
Speaker 1:No, it's like anything, though there's. You know, I'm trying to find a physiotherapist here in Nashville and it's there's very few that are at that level Right, and it's you apply that to anything. It's. You know, just because they're coaching in the nhl doesn't mean they're, you know, outstanding, uh, compared to their peers. And so there's very few that, I feel, that are elite and like get it, and the ones that don't, I feel, get moved around quite a bit, and the ones that do get it are consistent and they have success, whether they win the cup or not. I mean, that's the hardest thing to do, but they're, they're right there.
Speaker 2:How was your so your after your draft year? How, how close were you at a camp, whether the first year or the second year like was? Was there any close calls at all?
Speaker 1:I can remember my first training camp. I was so uncomfortable it wasn't even funny. I mean, it was I. I didn't. I went to camp. I didn't have my gear. Prior to camp I had new gloves, new pants. I didn't even bring my stick, so I used to cut the length of my stick. I would measure it, I didn't even know what length is like. This is the most uncomfortable experience and and as a result it didn't go well and start off while being a first round pick in Toronto. And so looking back, I learned that, like I have clients and they have kids today. What I tell them when it's like, shift the gear as soon as you get drafted, get comfortable, get that out of the way. I mean, they do a great job at that now, I mean.
Speaker 1:But it was awful, I can honestly admit. You know, my first Pat Burns was the coach. You know Burnsy was not the fondest of having communication with young people. At that time it was pretty known. Uh, I was awful and I think that kind of started kind of putting me behind the ball where I had to play catch up. But I think by the my second year, um, you know, things went great. Randy wood hit me from behind. I think a week before the season started I was playing with wendell cl, my partner, as my wingers. Things were going really well and that just kind of put me behind the ball. I was out I think six to eight weeks and then they had to send me down again. But I can remember that first training camp. It's so important for kids to be prepared and to give themselves a chance to be comfortable in an uncomfortable environment, which is hard to do.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, totally hard to do, and especially when you have the eyes on you, I mean like no one really. I guess it gets brought up a bit, but like that idea, I mean like being number eight and being the first one and and feeling like there's more eyes on you. And in Toronto there definitely is more eyes on you. It's not even you know, that's not an exaggerated thing. Was that when you started to feel the magnitude of of being that?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know, I'm kind't know, I'm kind of like. I never thought in those terms, like pressure, I was my own worst critic and I think obviously the way I thought from a young age obviously propelled me to get to where I got to. But it also was a kind of a slippery sword where at that level, on those particular circumstances, that level on those particular circumstances, it can be a huge disadvantage for you because I wanted everything so quickly and was so, not to say overwhelmed, I just kind of self-sabotaged my own self, which, again, my own responsibility. But that's why I think it's important to surround yourself with a good environment that's going to say, hey, you're okay. You know, keep working, keep moving.
Speaker 1:You know I can remember talking to, I think, the sports psychologist back then and he'd be like don't worry about it, you'll be fine. And I'm looking at him like I, to play now you know what I mean like this was like life or death for me. Internally. There was no other go play in the minors for the next 10 years. I, I, it was like nhl or nothing.
Speaker 2:That was kind of my mentality and was great for certain instances and not so good for others one of the things that comes up, uh, for me with the, with the players that I work with, is the idea of the self-criticism right. So, like I, I do think that there is an element that is is a high performer trait. I mean, if you don't have high standards and if and if you aren't particular about your game or your you know your practice, habits or any of these things, yeah, you're not going to get to where you want to go, but there doesn't be. There does become a point where if we, you know, if we focus on it or if we're too hard on ourselves, that it can become a detriment is. Is that, is that essentially kind of what you're thinking? Like you knew that you didn't have a good camp, and the fact that you didn't have a good camp and maybe weren't living up to this expectation that you had for yourself personally was almost worse than somebody else telling you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, exactly, it was my own. I knew I had, you know, the ability and stuff like that. That it was just, you know, self-sabotage in the sense where you know just have to take a step back and keep moving forward. And, like I say at the time, there's nothing wrong with kids. Even today, like going down, even my first year junior I sat and watched a bit and, you know, take notes and away you go.
Speaker 1:Playing in the minors was almost the norm back then in the 90s. You go down and play a year or two and then you get called up and you're ready to go. So, but it, but in my mind I was just, you know, uh, built in my mind that I wanted to be the best and uh, and if I couldn't do that it was was internally not good. And then you do start reading the Toronto Star or the Toronto Sun and you know, maybe there's times that you shouldn't be looking at that. And I'm sure today, with you know, obviously, online media and things like that, the smart ones probably don't even pay attention to it, which is a positive thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, how do you combine so, like if I'm getting back to the, the crit, like when I'm working with, with players, the idea is, is we want to be able to use the information available, I mean from whatever it was right, the practice or the game that maybe, like we're disappointed in, but then like, how do we put that? How do we use it? And then move on and step forward, and it's all with the intention of playing the long game, really right, like trying to get better over the long term which you've spoken to, having some patience involved in the process. Uh, would that be something like if you were to go back now and be 20 again, like, how would you handle the, the self-critique, and what would you do on a, on a kind of day-to-day, game--to-day basis?
Speaker 1:Well, definitely. I mean, I think today now, with studying of game tape and film or you know, whatever, they have access to everything and I think, being a student of the game, I mean they have real time. They watch it even after a shift. They got their iPads on the bench. I think things like that I would be. I mean, I thought I was a student of the game but now, looking back, I mean I would have been even more off ice, focused on, you know, whether it was maintaining strength physically and maintaining the mental component of it. So you're doing the things and reminding yourself what got you there. Um, you know, I think we lose hindsight. We lose, we start focusing on other people, what they're doing, as opposed to getting back to what you do and what you do best and and as long as you're doing it in that environment.
Speaker 1:You know you got to do what you provide and do best and obviously learn and grow your game. You know I was an offensive player. You know should have been pulled aside a little bit earlier, even been told how do you play away from the puck. And you know if you were very good at that, which Doug Gilmore was great at, you know if you're great at that, you have the puck more in return offensively. If you're great at that, you have the puck more in return offensively. And so just understanding those concepts, I think for younger players coming through, I think you have to have that discipline, not only on the ice or in training but mentally, to watch, re-watch video, things like that, and how can you do things differently and improve upon. I'm big on, you know, reminding yourself what you're good at while you're working on the little things that can improve your total game.
Speaker 2:I love you. Saying that that's just what I worked on with my group last week is like understanding what, what makes you unique and valuable, like and really owning that to the best of your ability. Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because you're, you're not helping the team. If I, you know I didn't produce offensively, I mean there's other guys that would hit and block shots, and you know it's like you gotta, you gotta be at your best to help the team and if you're not, you're not helping. And so, um, you know I again. You get back to success at the World Juniors, success in Europe on Team Canada, on teams where we won, it's just every, each individual brought something and contributed and did that very well, and so you know that's why we won. And even though we won, it was hard, you know what I mean. So that just tells you you have to have everything lined up in order to even have a chance to win. That's why, looking back now, I see these teams that are consistently taking an opportunity to win, even at the junior level or even at the pro level, winning the stamp cup. It's until've won. You don't understand it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, I agree. Can you think that you can want it too much? Yeah, and can that be a problem? Again, I've been trying to get Danny on Markov because he is such an awesome human being. Yeah, and what a great dude. Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's probably fishing. He's fishing in Florida too much, he doesn't have time, he doesn't get reception out on the ocean, but uh, yeah, I do. I think for me is a prime example of maybe wanting it too much too quickly. And I I do think there's a fine line and again, I think that's why programs like what you're doing, the importance of of parents to understand that there's certain resources around them, like what you're doing, like what I used to do, I think, when I was doing this 10, 10, 15 years ago, I don't I feel it was ahead of the time in a sense, right no one was talking about it was more on ice, more whatever.
Speaker 1:Now I think everyone's you know you listen to mckinnon talk. He works with somebody, everyone's open to it and understands the importance of it. So it's uh you know a little different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know for sure. I just like you know we can get so dialed in. You know I don't need to mean names. There's lots of like young players now that are like really uber dialed right, like from like a 24 7 kind of standpoint and um, I just know like for me, and not that I was conscious about it, but I felt that I did do better when there was some type of a diversion. Sometimes in st john's it wasn't the best diversion, obviously, with George Street maybe being right there.
Speaker 1:Or having to get up for an alarm clock or something you know there's some things.
Speaker 2:But even saying something more like I don't know, like guitar or going fishing, Absolutely Absolutely Some of these types of things.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely, listen, you immerse yourself, like guitar or going fishing Absolutely, absolutely Some of these types of things. Right, absolutely, listen, you immerse yourself, be good at what you do. I do feel that you know, looking back on all this, the shame of all of it is that look how much we, each of us, accomplished in the game. We didn't win the Stanley Cup, we didn't play a thousand games, all right, but if you look back, I'm like pretty much did everything there was to do in the game. I won at every level, didn't win a stanley cup and didn't win an olympic medal, but represented my country 10 times. Um, so to to you know, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Getting back to is taking a step back and looking at, hey, what you've accomplished and and think about it and write in a journal, write in your phone on things that have gone well and read it.
Speaker 1:Actually, look at what you've accomplished and I think now that I do that, it gives me some peace of mind, even though you know my career got cut short in a sense. But I'm content with what I did. Just I wish I did things a little longer, but I think the value in that is, as players, to enjoy the moment. Enjoy the process because it goes by in a blink of an eye and all of a sudden you're I'm in the life insurance business now. You know what I mean. You have a whole other life to to do other things and it feels like a lifetime ago. But you know, enjoying the moment because it goes by so quick and there was a lot of fun times where I was just you know I was an idiot to myself internally and wish I'd enjoyed things even more myself internally and and, uh, wish I'd enjoyed things even more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's a fair point. And, like you say, I mean you go back to those days, though, and and where do you? That's the thing like with, with even me now. So kind of the same, essentially the same boat. You mean, I thought that I was going to be an NHL, or for a long time I thought that I was going to be an NHL all-star. Whatever I thought I thought, Turns out I played 41 NHL games For a long time. For me, that was a massive disappointment and almost an embarrassment.
Speaker 2:Now, age gives you a different perspective and then you're able to look back and be like okay, what could I have done different? Where did I show up? Where I? You know that didn't serve me. And and even with what I do now it's there's massive amounts of accountability, not only in my life, but also like what I teach. Right, you need to be accountable and you need to take ownership, almost like extremely, but there is an ounce of it, and maybe even way more than an ounce, that some of these things aren't in your control. Like some of these things, maybe you didn't get what you deserved at certain points, Like, and that's sort of the thing with me, Like when I go back to that 20 to 22, you know year old Jason Padone or, for you, Brandon Convery, like I was playing really fricking good hockey. I had 42 goals at 22 years old and for some reason the Toronto Maple Leafs, who weren't in the playoffs, didn't bring me up Like that. Like that couldn't happen right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what I mean. Like it couldn't yeah.
Speaker 2:So, like what, how did cause? You were putting up numbers too, on a team and in a league where the best players were that weren't in the NHL, and like you have every ounce of reason to think that you shouldn't be there, right? So, like, what do you like? What do you say to that person, or what do you like? How is that different now from that perspective?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean like you said, I mean putting up those numbers now you would think you're, they would have a superstar in the waiting and you know that's how I looked at it then. It's just, it's not on your time and unfortunately, I think with you know a lot of these kids that are being selected with different teams. I think you know you look at other sports, look at the mannings, not reporting to certain organizations and not to say that kids should, families should, get into that. But the story, the the just of it is you got to be careful who you surround yourself with and you got to be mindful of opportunities, of what organization maybe you get plugged into if you do have that choice. We don't have that choice because there's a draft. Not all of us are free agents of a college and we get to pick, but it's. If I got selected to Philadelphia Flyers or someone else to pick earlier, calgary Flames, how would it have turned out?
Speaker 1:differently, you know what I mean and it's I have zero regrets at all and from the whole thing that transpired, it's just you learn from it. You do things now that you're doing. Maybe this led to for you to do what you do now and, uh, it makes you feel good and you know the importance of it and I think that's the bonus of all this.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I've actually said that a few times like I mean, if I did have the career that I wanted, there'd be no way that you and I would be talking on this show right now, I'm sure right, because I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. You know, I'd be fishing with Danny Markoff you know, at your.
Speaker 2:Marlin, right now, yeah, yeah, no, exactly, so, no, so, so there is a reason, um, and, and I'm, and I am grateful for that reason, because it does give you a perspective too, you know, one that's different than than you know, somebody else, I guess that that had a different career path right, that had that got different results.
Speaker 2:Uh, the the thing with is like with the accountability aspect is there's there's definitely spots and steps that I, you, know, you could improve. Who couldn't right? It's just tough when it's like damn, like I'm not sure how much could have changed, other than, like the environment, like the environment you're talking about, you don't have a choice over. You know, like, like that actual thing that you said was about an opportunity too. Uh, the opportunity needs to come like. In. The one time for me it came was when, in that initial trade, like when I first got traded to toronto, I went there, they had me on some good lines, I played minutes and I guess I don't even know where the story is going because it wasn't like I've actually felt that I played bad. I could have played better, I could have had more production.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like it's the hump right if you play it in like 10 more games, you're over the hump and then you can settle down and you're playing you're right, and that was exactly it.
Speaker 2:And so I didn't meet. I didn't meet whatever threshold was there. And I remember mike johnson came in at the exact same time from college and that's kind of such an interesting thing too right like unheralded, undrafted on this on that, comes in out of college and like essentially won my job, like he started the year next year, and then I was like you're playing uphill for the rest of the time and and for whatever reason, they saw in him. They saw in him and he went on to a great career and you know I mean happy for him. But it's just like that was the opportunity, like that was the opportunity that nine ten games was my opportunity in Toronto and I didn't seize it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a big deal. Yeah, no, it's. Um, I feel everyone's probably got their own. You know story, I just, I, just I think ironically, if I look back, like when I did get my opportunity, you know, the last 10 games of my second year, I got called up to Trump. I have five goals and two assists in the last 10 games. I thought, wow, this is. You know, I'm good, I'm off to the races.
Speaker 1:And then the next year I struggled. You know a new coach came in. You know new situation. You know a new coach came in, you know new situation, new this, and struggled with it. And you know, then eventually got traded to Vancouver and thought, okay, this is great. The following year, nine points in 12 games get put on waivers. You know what I mean. It just didn't add up. And I think in that environment you do. That's what I get back to. What I say is that you have to be ready to take on that opportunity when it presents itself and not to say that you're not going to get another opportunity. But in that environment, not too many times, uh, you know it's popping up. You know, every day, every week, you got to be to be ready To have that inner mindset and inner skill set to be able to handle what's coming.
Speaker 2:Did you make the team after I did notice and I was going to ask you about that the five goals in 11 games. Do the math on that. If that extrapolates over a season, the next year, did you start with the big club?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You made the team out of camp, so that was and then. So, if you look, back on that the 39 games and then the. That's crazy. You made two goals in the next 39 games after you got five and 11. How?
Speaker 1:much was that on you. I mean, you know you're playing. You know I'm an offensive player. I mean not to knock. You know playing fourth line and you're as good at it. Listen, if you give me a skilled player, I'll make you as good as I want you to be in that league. Basically that's how I look at it. So you know there was other players that we both know that were on the team whatever, you know a lot more popular than I was. So you're in that predicament and unfortunately that's just the way it went. So you know you've got to understand the rules of the game and to deal with it and do other things well while you bide your time to get that opportunity. But you know, I thought going to Vancouver was going to be a fresh start and obviously with Mike Key in there, you know.
Speaker 1:I did extremely well, I'm very proud of what I did there. I couldn't have done anything else, but I just don't think I got out from under the Toronto stigma and I think that's a lesson to learn for kids is like, you know, you got to like I say not to be repetitive you just you got to be ready and take advantage of an opportunity because of that environment.
Speaker 2:It's just you know you might only have one chance right, so you know take a short break from the podcast just to remind you of the mindset quiz that is now up on my website, up my hockey. It's a it's a super clean, simple, easy introduction to some of the things that I help hockey players with. It'll take less than five minutes to complete Super clean, super simple and you will find out where you are at currently when it comes to your mindset with a letter grade response. So you will get a letter grade for your athlete, which is an auto responder that will break down where you're currently at. The mindset quiz will also be sent to me so I'll be able to see some of the answers and see where maybe we can make some big gains with your athlete's mindset and his skill development, with your athlete's mindset and his skill development within that and his performance. And if you are willing and if I think that we can help here at UpMyHockey, then I encourage a little 15-minute phone call to see where you're at and if we can help. So if you are at all interested about mindset, what that actually means, where it shows up in the game, and if you're an athlete or if you are a player listening, if you are somebody that could benefit from some mindset development or mindset training. Then check out the mindset quiz. It starts the conversation and it's definitely not something that has to be followed through with meaning. It's not a hard sell at all. It's just an exposure to where we can help, where you may need some help, and encourages a conversation.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, if you want to get involved in that mindset quiz, it is at upmyhockeycom. It is also on my Instagram page. If you go to my bio, it is a link available there. Two ways to access it. There's also the Up my Hockey parent group on Facebook. If you're not a member of that, you should be. You can request access to that private group on Facebook and the mindset quiz is also available there. So lots of places to take it. Get after it, it's something that you'll find interesting, I'm sure. And Get after it. It's something that you'll find interesting, I'm sure, and maybe it'll lead to some advancement in the personal development in the game. So let's get back to the conversation now with Brandon Convery. That next stint, like the one before you got traded to Toronto, like and you said was it? You said I wish I struggled, were you struggling? Are you struggling with the role? Accepting your role? Like, how, how were you struggling, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was.
Speaker 1:I was not in a good frame of mind, just personally. You know, I was frustrated with the way or what position I was put in, with the way or what position I was put in, who I was playing with felt I was as good as others around me that were playing and so I struggled and it affected me. It was my own fault, I mean, you know again, probably why I get into coaching and doing other things later, but if I was in that position of authority, I would recognize that and pull someone aside and just talk with them. I didn't trust anyone and you know it was a big issue for me and how I played and performed and ultimately I got traded, which again was great, which again was great. I just I would love to have a conversation with my team to this day just to be upfront and to say, like, what did go on? Because it was all positive. Like I said, I had almost a pointy game and you know, I don't know what went wrong. Yeah, you don't know, but you've been super transparent, which I appreciate.
Speaker 2:I mean, and I think that's where all the good stuff comes from, one of the things that I talk about, like. So, again, so your scenario there being resistant to the role that you've been given in that environment, right, essentially, like there's resistance there, you think you should be in another scenario you know more minutes, different, whatever Um, so we're balancing this idea of expectation, which is a good thing, right, that you feel that there's more there, that you can be more there. But then it got to a point, probably, where it wasn't helping you play better hockey, right, like, we actually became cynical, um, and maybe even showed up in the locker room, like, do you think, if you were to look back, did you think that the negativity potentially showed up in the locker room?
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. You know I didn't listen. I feel if I could label myself it would definitely be misunderstood. I think that a lot of people that didn't really know me at that level thought that maybe you know, like I overcared and it affected me and so I didn't trust anyone, didn't talk to anyone really you know, from a coaching staff standpoint or anything like that. Um, and it affected me. I label it as misunderstood and so fast forward getting into coaching and everything, my players I knew them inside and out, like there was no I limited that right off the table.
Speaker 1:They knew that. I knew. I knew what their goals were, what their outcomes were. I knew how much they cared. I knew what their family wanted for them. It's just things like that that make the difference. And getting back to those coaches you mentioned before, I mean that's the difference. I mean if you have someone that reaches out and gets to understand you as a person and I'm not faulting anyone at that time because maybe they thought I was okay, you know what I mean. I didn't really talk, did my own thing, probably moped a little my own self and didn't help my own self in that particular situation where they misunderstood how much I did care, when maybe they thought I didn't care yeah, you know, yeah, no, it's not about.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not about pointing fingers. I think everyone is doing the best they can with what they got in the moment. You know we have to, we have to assume that's the case, right, like no one helped to get anybody. It's just like learning from our mistakes or potentially, how, how it helped other, or I mean the effect it had on others, and you obviously did that with your coaching after. Okay, like this is, this is what I felt, this is how I'm going to do this going forward, uh, and but that that is such a massive piece of of the puzzle. When it comes to being a hockey player, like I always say, like there's, you have that hockey player, of course, but there is a human being inside that hockey player right which allows that hockey player to be good.
Speaker 2:And and why I brought up the locker room is because that's another one like that I trumpet. A lot is like how are we showing up in that locker room? And when we're? Because you mean there's an effect. You mean josh don't said the other day, I mean his dad said be a fountain, not a drain and I know that I could have been a drain at times too. When things aren't going good for you, you show up there. We're a little bit miserable. That affects people. You know like it affects people. And it's not necessarily because anyone's selfish or anyone's, you know, immature.
Speaker 1:It's just didn't know any better at the time that it wasn't helping you or anyone else. Yeah, no, I you hit it. I mean it's like I say I, you look at it, you know kids, 18 year olds. Like I say, I don't fault them. And so I look back and, as much as I do take responsibility, it's like maybe I do have to say, hey, I don't blame you for how you were on how you behaved. I mean it wasn't appropriate. It wasn't like I was crazy or anything, it was just my internal self-being. It just self-sabotaged my play. It really did no other answer but that it drained me physically, mentally, you name it, it did it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not fun anymore.
Speaker 1:No, it wasn't fun, and that's why I'm saying, like I got to that level and I was like this is what this is. I played my whole life dreaming of playing in the NHL. I finally get there. I got drafted first round, do all this, and then it's like this is it? You know what I mean? So it's it's kind of like, but that's what I get back to talking about.
Speaker 1:Like setting the bar and setting goals to keep achieving certain things is that you got to reinvent yourself constantly and, uh, moving the bar, because it's like I got there, that I was kind of like, and then you get around players that you idolized or grew up thinking how they were and leaders and things like that.
Speaker 1:And then you get around them and then you're like, wait a second, they're not. They're not what I thought they were. Or I think, for players growing up that are playing never assume they're as good as you think and nor are they as bad as you think. And, um, I think for a lot of kids that maybe are in awe like I was in awe of these guys when I first got drafted. I mean, I grew up. I I can tell you what, how they taped their stick, what color they wore this. It was just, it was kind of a savant in those things and sometimes I got caught up too mentally of being in awe as opposed to hey I'm, I'm actually better than these guys if I just put my head down and get after it.
Speaker 2:So it was interesting yeah, I mean and I find that that enjoyment piece is what is what I'm going to stick to is is because, as an amateur athlete, like even even the tough times in spokane like there was some tough times there, for sure like I I never stopped having a good time, like it was all, and especially in minor hockey, like I didn't even pressure, I don't even know what that was right, like it was just go play and then, as a pro, as a pro, there was definitely times where I was cynical, but like when, when I'm talking with players now and I see it showing up more as like these u13, u15, like already getting, like that there's no fun and it's like that's the like.
Speaker 2:That's the thing that I try and connect everyone to is like what the why? Like you're doing this because you loved it at some point, right, like, and we need to continue loving it, finding ways to love it, and and part of that is enjoying that process that you said of like getting better, like just being in it, being in the fight, like that's got to be part of the fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, listen, we're all enjoying things a little bit more when we're doing what we feel we're supposed to be doing, and so that's easier said than done.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the slippery sword when you're in that environment pro level or high level of whether it's business or sports it's performing at the level that you perceive yourself to perform at and you know, maybe you have to dial it down a little bit and while you keep moving forward in that environment, I would strongly suggest that.
Speaker 1:But again, it's just getting back to the trust level from the people that are above you or the peers that are around you. I just feel like it's a team game, right, and I want your viewers or whoever's watching it it's a team game that ultimately comes down to everyone is focusing on themselves, right, to be at their best, and you know it's the ones that do it the best. They have the most team success where they bring up their best, but ultimately it comes down to the individual. Even though everyone talks about team concepts and all this, I get it, but we all want to be at our best and we all want to contribute and feel like we're contributing a part of something meaningful, whether it's winning or, you know, whatever it is, but you know, I think, that environment you do get to understand there's guys that are focusing all about themselves and you understand it's not all about team but you know, trying to be at your best to help the common goal, which is ultimately to win the stanley cup, in that environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I think it, uh, and you, and you saw it in the few teams that you were on and I saw it for sure, like in the nhl and out of it as well, the different cultures within the greatest league in the world, right, like the ones that, the ones that aren't being successful. You can look back now as an adult and be like, oh, I can clearly see why, you know, and I can clearly see why this other group was was doing so well, because the atmosphere in the room wasn't individual and it wasn't. You know, it was about. It was about making a difference and the brief time I was with, well, I mean I was with toronto, I mean not toronto, florida for a while, like from the draft to my first year pro, so you mean a few camps and they had that success going to the, going to the finals, the, the year before my first pro year. And that year for me, like I was a fourth line guy when I played my 21 games with them or whatever, 19, I think it was as a first year pro and there was no real issue with that for me because, like, they did do a good job of just explaining that this is, this is how you're getting involved in the game in the league, right like I wasn't really worried that I only had one goal, I wasn't worried that I wasn't on the power play. It was comfortable, right like I had comfortable minutes in a comfortable environment. I felt that I was part of the process, and I thought they did a pretty good job of like explaining to me about 30 years ago, and then when the trade happened, it was completely different. I didn't know what I was supposed to do or kind of where I fit in or what the plan was, and, and it kind of felt a little bit unnerving in in some ways. And you know, and I don't know if that's like whatever, but that's just a little bit of a culture piece, a little bit of a communication piece, a little bit of like a, a knowledge piece.
Speaker 2:The thing I want to talk about, though, and I'm going to share a story with you that Jason Krog told, told on the podcast you know him, right, jason Krog. We played like. He played a long time. He came out with the Islanders. He had a great pro in the eye, didn't have a ton of success in the NHL, but played quite a few games, and he told a story when he got called up from the IHL into Atlanta I think it was at the time and so he'd been a pro for a while.
Speaker 2:He'd won MVP, kind of in the minors, this type of stuff, right, and they put him net front on the power play. And he up right and they put him net front on the power play and he was so pissed off that he was net front on the power play. He never played net front before, right. So he's in the nhl net front of the power play. Why the hell I've taken cross checks in the back from the big, you know, like all this stuff, right. Anyways, and in the conversation he was like I was so worried about being upset that I wasn't in my right spot that I I didn't take advantage of the opportunity that was right in front of me of maybe playing good net front on the power play.
Speaker 2:Isn't that wild though right To look back on it, I think that's just like a highlight for everyone listening. Right now, where you're at might be exactly where you need to be at. You just got to do the best you can with where you're at.
Speaker 1:You hit it. That's what I'm saying. We're always thinking that we're supposed to hear and that we're we are where we're supposed to be, and uh to to. You know, it's kind of cliche in a sense, it's like to enjoy it or you know, you don't have to accept it but but to just go with it and build upon it and, like I said, I can only relate to say relate to say it's just not on your time in that environment, it's not always on your time. You know what I mean. In time, hopefully, you'll get to be where you want to be, but it's just I don't know how to pinpoint it, but that's funny, we can all relate to that.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of people that. Can you know what? I'm going to pick your words a little bit and I want to see if you agree with me. So, like, the one thing that I say to my players is that they do need to accept it, but they don't have to like it. Yeah, true, right, because isn't that? Isn't that like the differentiation there? Like you need to accept where it is, that you're at me being in saint john's right or you being wherever, jason crock being that front, you ought to accept it. You don't have to like it, but if you accept it, I think that resistance goes away allows you to maybe take advantage of that opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's yeah, I can only equate it to an energy energy drainer. You know it's uh fighting it and uh, it's just mentally, physically it comes next and it just drains you, you, you know what I mean, and so I think, ultimately, players just got to get back to just playing and having fun.
Speaker 1:And having fun is doing what you do best, and if you're doing that consistently, if you're good enough to maintain and stay at a level that you aspire to be at, so be it. But you know my fondestest memories. I think that period maybe in toronto, where I got called up and had that stint in the last 10 or 11 games, and then vancouver. But other than that my most exciting time was not in the nhl, it was in lugano, switzerland post nhl, and we went on a run and won the whole uh, swiss league. I felt that could have beat half the NHL teams.
Speaker 1:Like we had a great roster Petri Newman and Mike. Maniluk and you know myself with the three imports.
Speaker 1:But we won collectively as a team, and it's just night and day why we did. I mean, and I was accustomed to winning like like under 17 and world juniors and things like that, but this was a team championship where you had to win four to seven. You know, we all had to do three rounds there as opposed to four, and we were that good and we barely won and it's just, it's a testament to the coaching staff who I feel the coach there was probably the best coach I've ever had, from a preparedness, you know, standpoint and also trying to get to learn and understand you as an individual as to what you know makes you tick, you know, and, but it's not for everyone. You know and, uh, but it's not for everyone. That was what I liked. You know, what you like might have been a little bit different, or someone else's, but that's where it gets back to.
Speaker 2:You said earlier, it's not one size fits all and the good ones know how to uh um, connect with uh, various players, not just a couple can we agree, like, when people ask me about mindset right, or like what that means, it's kind of, for me, I I've been doing this now for like five years and I haven't come up with the right elevator pitch because, like, when I say mindset, a lot of people think that I teach, like visualization, or they think that I teach like you know, uh, mindfulness, breathing or something, which are great tools, but I'm like no, like, for me, it's like that's not even like touching the surface. What I like, I like mindset is, yeah, your preparedness, your, your, your aptitude for, for wanting to improve your ability to cope. You know, you're like there's so many things that come under that, that like fall under the umbrella of high performance, that it's like I just call it mindset, like do you, would you, could you be more eloquent than?
Speaker 1:I am with that. Yeah, no, I think it's great. I mean, I have a, an ex-client that actually just graduated college and just got out of chicago's farm team um tryouts, I think last week. He's in indianapolis in the east coast lake, but I just texted him and said, hey, learn to be a good pro. What does that mean? It just means you know, show up on time, put in the work. You know what I mean be disciplined, study, be a good student. You know what I mean. Like it's, it's nothing to do with you know, tell them to set goals or do anything like that, but it's just like learn to be a good pro. And if you follow tom brady or any of these guys, the high level guys, on how they did things in the process, on how they did things, it's that approach in itself, um, you know, will get you a long way in that environment, um, without without getting overwhelmed, and maybe that's why the sports psychologist in toronto kept saying ah don't worry about it, you know like don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Like you're killing me right now, but maybe he was right. You know what I mean. Like don't worry about it. You know what I mean. Like you're killing me right now, but maybe he was right. You know what I mean. Hey, but you know what?
Speaker 2:Like that's such a great thing and I don't know, I want to dig into it. So that's like a mom or a dad saying just go out there and play, confident you know, or don't worry about it. Like yeah, of course that's, that's the message. But like how or why Do you know what I mean? Like yeah, how would you do that now? Like maybe the message was right not to worry about it, but how do you not worry about?
Speaker 1:it. Well, I do think I look back at some of the players that I feel that you know, maybe I'll say this politely, but I thought their IQ level wasn't as high as maybe the regulars politely, but I thought their iq level wasn't as high as maybe the regulars, but maybe they had it right. They just they didn't think about it, you know what I mean, and they had 10, 15 year career in the nhl because they just whatever you know what I mean they just showed up. They didn't really have those high expectations or anything. They just went and they played and they worked hard and did their job and went along. I I think there's a lot of guys like that in that environment. For myself, I over overthinking constantly. It's a good thing in one way, but also it can be a negative thing in certain moments.
Speaker 2:I 1000% agree with that and I think that the guys that have the most challenges when it comes to that are the guys that are generally intelligent, like I mean from an IQ, like a real IQ standpoint, like not just a hockey IQ standpoint and are cerebral right, which means that like they overthink, and that is a real tough thing to do with a high skill set in a very, very high profile demanding environment. It's like how do we settle down the hamster right and be simple? I find that the guys that yeah to your point that are a little simpler, let's say cerebrally, like it's an easier time for them because there's less happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. Let's say cerebrally, like it's an easier time for them because there's less happening yeah, 100. But I, you know, I think it gets back to the leadership that's, you know, around the environment and great leaders on great teams. For me, you know a great way of making people feel comfortable and letting them be their self, be themselves and make them feel like they can contribute to what they're working towards. But I can only equate that to the teams that we won and had the success on. We had great leaders that were just great guys and had fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's really it. I mean anytime. Anytime that I had success or my memories of success was always when it was the most fun and the group was connected right. We were enjoying each other, we wanted to play for each other, you wanted to show up at the rink. Uh, you know, all those things are real big testaments to playing good hockey, which is why it's one of the most fundamental things that I get guys to focus on. What is it you love about it? And that even gets back to what we were saying before Usually, when you're doing what you do well and you really focus on that your unique value to the team, the team does better, you do better, you enjoy it everyone's on the same page. Maybe that's a good place to end. I know you got other business to do. I appreciate I was going to hang on to you for as long as I could, because I never know when I'll get your back.
Speaker 1:It's like the Olympics every four years. No, this is fun. This is fun. I think, like you say, it's like what we're doing. I'm in the life insurance business, but it was more or less. We do a lot of disability work for players that got injured and had to retire, and so maybe you know my takeaway I wanted to make sure guys were protected and looked after, so their families were looked after, and so it's kind of similar to what you're doing.
Speaker 1:You're taking past experiences and helping the youth and the future of the game based on your knowledge and what you would do differently to help impact them in a positive way. So I think it's. I think it's outstanding what you're doing. I think there needs to be more people that grasp what you offer and provide, because I think very few people actually get it, which we talked about. But it's one thing to be book smart about it, but I do think there's a component but you've actually been there and been through it and understand it, and now you're on the other side of it, which I think is great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, thanks for saying that. That's a whole other conversation. The book smart side of the experiential side and how that fits into, even like the hiring process in the nhl and stuff, right, and the decision makers and what's going on. Um, I'm probably eight years away from a degree and in whatever that category would be to. You know, get me through the academic door, uh, which is why those guys like that played and also have that are very, even rarer than me. Right, like enjoying it.
Speaker 2:But, uh, for what I'm doing in the amateur environment, in the amateur space, I do feel very, very comfortable with what I'm teaching and and and how I and how I provide the message and there's obviously a lot of players out there that can, that can use it and I think, even more so than ever. Like I said, I'm just seeing it now show up, just uh, yeah, it's a very common thing and a lot of guys want to play, of course, and it's just, it's fun to see the differences they can make and that's really a crazy thing, right, like a young brendan convery at 21, if they could have found somebody you know, an older brendan convery at 40 to sit you down, who knows what that would have looked like, or could have looked like right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you never know I'd be fishing well, you better warm that that spare room up for me. All right, anytime, anytime, all right, thanks. Thank you for listening to the conversation with Brandon Convery, episode 140 of the At my Hockey podcast. As I said at the intro, brandon was one hell of a hockey player High hockey IQ, super talented, very agile, a playmaking, creative centerman that I really enjoyed playing with. He made the game easy for me, although we rip each other behind well, not behind each other's backs, that's not what I meant to say we rip each other openly to each other's faces about how I carried him, and he says he carried me, and so we have. We have good fun with that. But the reality was we were actually a pretty good combo, although Brandon could could score on his own, no question, he he was. He was a guy that liked to dish the puck and he'd like to uh, find people who could find open ice, and that was something that I was good at, and uh and was good at distributing the puck into the net. So, uh, we had some good chemistry together. It was an honor to play with him at the NHL level and at the AHL level, and and just his story was one of those that you know, is near and dear to my heart. Uh, because you know there's some parallels between the two of us and many other players out there where it comes to a why didn't it work out? You know what I mean. Sometimes it's opportunity, sometimes it's taking advantage of the opportunity when it's in front of you. Sometimes we get in our own way when it comes to our ability to assess the situation and what our response is to that situation.
Speaker 2:For Brandon, he said he was a stress case essentially the entire time that he was a pro. And when you're not enjoying yourself and you're not enjoying the game and you're not having the time to relax away from the game, your system is always on high alert. We talk about the parasympathetic system that needs to be activated so we can rest and we can relax. And when you're always in high alert and feeling like you can't trust anybody and feeling there's nobody there that's got your best interest at heart, it can be very, very taxing on the human side of the game and and again, I don't think that it it hurt necessarily Brandon's game, which is, which is what can be so troublesome. You know when you are producing at the, you know the level underneath the NHL and and producing at over a point of game pace and being one of the top scorers in the league and and you are supposed to be a playmaking, you know, point producing player. Uh, you can imagine why Brennan was wondering why he wasn't hearing his name called on a team that you know wasn't in the playoffs and a team that should have been trying to rebuild and develop its young players.
Speaker 2:And and so Brennan's not alone in these scenarios. I mean where you get drafted to matters, who's in front of you matters in the lineup, what the development process is like, it's not the same for every player and every player has to deal with it in their own way and in their own circumstances. And trying to build that support system around the player having somebody that they can trust, having somebody that they can trust, having somebody that they can lean on, that they can talk to is a very, very wise thing to do, and some players need it more than others. I mean, quite frankly, obviously, maybe not every player does need it. I mean I do think that there should be somebody around that is available, but every player is going to want to talk more is going to. Maybe some are going to want to talk less. Some some want constant contact.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's a that's a personality thing, but the end of the day, being able to manage the the path through pro hockey and into pro if you're ever lucky enough to play pro is daunting.
Speaker 2:There's a lot that goes on with it, and to think that at 18 through 25, that these players are supposed to be able to figure it out on their own and that they're just going to come out rosy on the other side, I think is not the wisest approach. So I hope you learned a lot from Brandon and I's discussion today that it's not just about talent at all. It's about opportunity, it's about process, it's about support, it's about mindset. It's about so much more than just being an amazing hockey player. If you want to get to the highest level, or even whatever level that might be for you as an individual, whatever your NHL is, it's going to take a team. So, yes, that was a long time coming. Brandon, if you did listen, I really appreciate you being on. You know that I do. I always love our conversations and thanks to all of those who listened to the entire thing. And until next time, play hard and keep your head up.